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Who Really are the Job Creators?

Taxing the rich to make middle class investments that make the middle class grow and thrive is the single shrewdest thing we can do for the middle class, for the poor, and for the rich.

[Paraphrased transcript from Seattle Venture Capitalist Nick Hanauer]

Rich people don’t create Jobs. Nor do businesses large or small.

Jobs are a consequence of a circle-of-life-like feedback loop between customers and businesses.  And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring.

That’s why when business people take credit for creating jobs, it’s a little bit like squirrels taking credit for creating evolution. It’s actually the other way around.

Anyone whose ever run business knows that hiring more people is a course of last resort for capitalists. It’s what [they] do if and only if rising consumer demand requires it. 

In this sense, an ordinary consumer is more of a job creator than a capitalist.

That’s why our existing policies are so upside down. When the biggest tax exemptions and lowest tax rates benefit the richest — all in the name of job creation — all that happens is that the rich get richer.

If it was true that lower taxes for the rich and more wealth for the wealthy led to job creation, today we would be drowning in jobs. 

And yet employment and under-employment is at record highs. 

Another reason this idea [that tax breaks for the wealthy creates jobs] is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough super-rich people to power a great economy. 

[A rich person] makes hundreds or thousands of times as much as the median American, but [they] don’t buy hundreds or thousands of times as much stuff.

We’ve had it backwards for the last 30 years. Rich people don’t create jobs. 

Jobs are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop between customers and businesses. And when the middle class thrives, businesses grow and hire and owners profit. 

That’s why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is such a fantastic deal for the middle class and the rich. 

In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are middle class consumers. And taxing the rich to make middle class investments that make the middle class grow and thrive is the single shrewdest thing we can do for the middle class, for the poor, and for the rich.

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wiplayer June 4, 2012 at 09:40 pm
Lyle - I surrender. It's too hard to have a general conversation with you. Thanks for letting me try though. :)
Lyle Ruble June 4, 2012 at 09:47 pm
@wiplayer...I didn't mean to shut you down. I would welcome discussions with you at any time.
Lyle Ruble June 5, 2012 at 10:11 pm
@Free Shorewood....Sorry, but you are shorting the process. Overproduction is only viable if there is a market for the overproduction. Soft capitalism (regulated capitalism) works as long as there is a large viable middle class. Without customers to create demand, then the system cannot sustain flow..
What also must be acknowledged is that the private sector cannot always provide the best means for service delivery. A classic example is healthcare. Included is large infrastructure projects and maintenance. Capitalism is limited in these areas for cost and efficiency.
Lyle Ruble June 5, 2012 at 10:38 pm
@Free Shorewood...I don't know anyone who claims to be a liberal or socialist who are whining or entitlement minded, that is your fantasy. Liberals and socialists are hard working, tax paying citizens. Just because they acknowledge that issues of social justice must be addressed and corrected doesn't mean that they are any less of a worthy citizen/s. As far as you wasting your mental capacity, that is a questionable statement, are you stating that you have limited mental capacity?
wiplayer June 6, 2012 at 03:57 pm
Lyle - I could be wrong or misinterpreting something. Using the Walker recall situation as an example, many people who wanted Walker recalled were democrats. While not all dem's are exrtremly liberal, aren't many of them liberal in their thinking or ideology? If so, then there are liberals, without question, who are entittlement minded. I guess I would say that some/many union members tend to feel entittled to the benefits their unions worked so hard to get for their members. Note I am not saying all dem's feel this way nor am I saying that all union members are liberal minded. But it seems to me that one problem with unions is they worked very hard, very early in their existance to create and protect benefits for their members. Unions never really evolved over time and as a result, they have helped to create a base of entitlement minded members. But maybe I'm wrong?
Chris June 6, 2012 at 04:10 pm
My Dad, ever the chauvinist, used to say to tweak my Mom, not all women are bad drivers, just all bad drivers happen to be women.
Isn't this the case with entitlement/liberals? Not all liberals demand entitlements, but those who demand entitlements, happen to be liberals?
oak creek resident June 6, 2012 at 04:12 pm
Look at the leaches and other resource hogging sectors of society, and you will soon find liberal and democrat voters. Overpaid whining union employees, full time "Students" who live off mommy and daddys income, professional protesters, and those who live off welfare generations at a time.
Randy1949 June 6, 2012 at 04:20 pm
I'll tell you what entitlements i demand, Chris. I demand the Social Security and Medicare benefits I paid my entire working life for. I also resent having to pay extra for hospital treatment when the people bumped off BadgerCare hit the ERs and can't pay.
And what would you call Diane Hendricks' wish to pay less in income tax at the expense of people like me taking up the slack if not an entitlement? And your dad is a real card. The idiot driver who slid into us last spring while we were at a stop sign was a guy.
Lyle Ruble June 6, 2012 at 04:21 pm
@wiplayer...First, let me say that the recall of the governor at this time was doomed to failure. Walker's win was as much about the rejection of the recall process as anything else. The difference in Walker's numbers and Barrett's were consistent with the numbers of people who were upset with the recall process. I think the jury is still out concerning Walker's policies and their impacts will be clear by the time that he stands for reelection in 2014.
Concerning unions, it is a long and complicated story. I agree that without unions and their work early on, the worker would be much worse off. The downward slide for union membership began during the Truman Administration when the Taft-Hartley Act was passed severely limiting union actions. This essentially forced unions into getting directly political by attempting to influence legislation for their own benefit. The big hits that came against the unions occurred during the 1970s and 1980s when they were seen as a major contributor to "stagnation" and the wage/price spiral. Since then, labor unions have proven to be unpopular and their organizing has been severely curtailed. Public unions have been a different breed altogether from their private union counterparts. Public unions have been severely limited by statute from work actions open to the private unions. It is illegal for them to have work slow downs or strikes. The public unions have been forced to work on collective bargaining agreements. (continued)
Lyle Ruble June 6, 2012 at 04:35 pm
@wiplayer (continued)...The collective bargaining agreements became the organization's policy and procedures manuals; regulating everything from work rules to production levels. Pay and benefits were the minor portion of collective bargaining. It was not uncommon for the public unions to go years without a signed contract, but could not take job actions to force an agreement. The government entity had always retained the upper hand in setting wages.
Since the restriction of Wisconsin public unions to only negotiating capped wages, then much of their purpose for being has been negated and they have lost membership. Every agency that depended on the CBA to governing the work place has been forced to go back and write P & P Manuals, which has been laborious and time consuming. They have been written without employee input and have become contentious, leaving the employees highly dissatisfied. Due to this some of the best and brightest of public employees have chosen to leave, either through retirement or moving into the public sector. In any case, this damages the organization through the loss of experienced employees. I call this throwing the baby out with the bath water. All this will have to be addressed with or without the unions. If it isn't addressed then over the next few years service and service levels are sure to decline.
The Anti-Alinsky June 6, 2012 at 04:51 pm
The fundemental flaw in Victor Drover and Nick Hanauer's arguments is that they are trying to separate business and "the rich". "The rich" get rich through business ventures. They stay "the rich" by making those businesses run as efficiently as possible.
A business-labor structure exists because a business owner has a task that involves an amount of work. The laborer provides that work. Whether that business owner is poor, rich or super rich doesn't matter. The business gets his task finished, and the laborer gets paid. Now take some of the businesses money away. The business owner now has to set priorities as to which jobs get done based on the remaining amount of money. Which means some laborer is not going to get paid. Yes, it is that simple!
Randy1949 June 6, 2012 at 04:57 pm
You're ignoring the difference between to personal income tax rates and corporate income taxes, which I would actually agree with reducing.
The rich, as in rich individuals do not boost the economy with enough consumption to warrant their tax breaks. As Hanauer said in another venue -- he makes 300 times the yearly income of the average worker, yet his family owns three cars, not three hundred. He doesn't have three hundred houses, nor does he watch three hundred TVs. And so on.
Lyle Ruble June 6, 2012 at 05:00 pm
@oak creek resident...It's time to tone down the rhetoric and start dealing in the truth. Union employees are no longer an issue and, for that matter, never have been. Most full time students aren't living off mommy and daddy, but are living off of work and student loans. There aren't nearly the numbers living off of welfare as you portray. I have to ask you why you insist of depicting the situation as worse than it really is.
Victor Drover June 6, 2012 at 05:01 pm
I think what's most important here is that Hanauer describes the economy as a symbiotic relationship. This is the most critical fact to me. If you have a symbiotic relationship, policy changes need to look at both sides, not just one.
Lyle Ruble June 6, 2012 at 05:20 pm
@The Anti-Alinsky...It's not as simple as you proclaim. Labor is not just a quantitative variable but also a qualitative variable. Any business owner is dependent on a certain number of employees that have core competencies. Competency only comes over time with training and meeting or exceeding production demands.
The other problem rests with the business owner's expectations for return on investment. Profits are not the only thing that drive business, but the discerned value of the product or service offered and the market price that can be achieved. To determine pricing based on labor costs is only part of the metrics. All of this makes the value of labor very complicated. You also assume that all wealth is made, but there is a large share that is inherited. Mit Romney is a prime example, he started out wealthy and has only built on the base. George W. Bush is another example, but he is generally regarded as a failed businessman. Even with all of his early opportunities, he still failed.
Chris June 6, 2012 at 05:29 pm
Randy,
You missed the slight attempt at humor. Just tweaking the liberals. I too would like SS and Medicare to be there when I retire. Unfortunately, we can all see the writing on the wall that in it's current form, that's not going to happen. Not sure how you can be mad at people for following the tax code. I would love to see a study as to how many that were "bumped" off of BadgerCare even had a primary care doctor. I have a staff of about 50, mostly entry level jobs. A large percentage are on BadgerCare. They all still run to the emergency room for the sniffles. What do they care what service they use?
Alfred June 6, 2012 at 05:40 pm
Ah yes, the empty platitudes Lyle Rube pontificating to the hoi polloi on his vast knowledge of economics and business.
Chris June 6, 2012 at 05:41 pm
I'm just curious, is there a fixed amount of money that is split up, or a fixed amount of wealth that is divvied up in the world?
I am unaware, or perhaps unable to comprehend, how much of Bill Gates' money, or Warren Buffet's money, or anyone elses for that matters, has affected how much potential I have to make money. If they earn $100, does that mean that there's 100$ less that I have the potential to earn?
Randy1949 June 6, 2012 at 05:57 pm
Chris -- ERs aren't free. Either they are reimbursed by private insurance, BadgerCare, or out of pocket by people who use them. The remainder are passed on to the hospital costs for everyone else.
You talk about running to the ER for sniffles. It's so expensive for an uninsured person like myself that we have toughed out actual injuries rather than risk thousand dollar bills just for getting checked over.
Chris June 6, 2012 at 06:07 pm
Randy,
My point was, they may have been bumped off of BadgerCare, but if they are on BadgerCare and still using the ER for every little thing, we are saving nothing by having them ON BadgerCare to begin with, because as taxpayers, and medical service users, we are paying for them either way. Isn't the idea of BadgerCare is to give the poor access to preventable health care? I'm wondering if there's some quantifiable way to see if the dollars are well spend. I know studies have shown that those with insurance tend to use medical services a lot more than those without...which seems obvious, but I'd be interested to see if the amount of emergency room visits increased when BadgerCare enrollment went up, and if they subsequently went down when the eligibility standards were rolled back.
The Anti-Alinsky June 6, 2012 at 07:45 pm
Ok Randy, lets say Mr Moneybags makes 300 times more than I do this year. He already has the three cars he wants, the HD TVs in the rooms he want's, and owns a vaction home and yacht that he doesn't want to trade up for. So what does he do with his extra money?
It's how the rich get richer, he invests it. That investment drives existing and new jobs. Lyle, Lyle, Lyle. Even if the money is inherited, what happens to it? Most heirs don't rush and wast the money on foolish things. They leave it invested in the family business which again, drives existing and new jobs. As far as Romey "inheriting his wealth", read this politifact article. While he did have a comfortable life, he spent his money on a high quality education, gave away his inheritance, and built his own fortune. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/20/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-he-didnt-inherit-money-his-parent/ And yes, it really is that simple. For some reason you just want to make it more difficult than it has to be.
Randy1949 June 6, 2012 at 07:52 pm
Mr. Moneybags invests his money in Apple, but there's no increased demand for iPads, so, no new jobs. He invests his money in Chrysler, but no one has the money to buy Jeeps, so no new jobs. He invests it in a building supply company, but there';s no demand for news construction so, no new jobs.
The country is not currently lacking the capital for business growth -- it's lacking the demand.
J. B. Schmidt June 6, 2012 at 08:00 pm
@Randy
Please put a dollar figure to this stupid notion. What should people be given (and what should therefore be taken) in order to increase demand? If investment stops because you redistributed it to a consumer, how does apple innovate. Should we be condemned to live with the original MAC because you gave the money for purchasing and stole the money from investing?
Alfred June 6, 2012 at 08:11 pm
Good God Randy you can't be this dense. You purchase Apple stock, Apple has your money in invest in new products, it's how capital is created. You are slipping old man.
Steve ® June 6, 2012 at 08:15 pm
Demand for iPads is at record highs. Moneybags gets return, demand created or sustained jobs. /end
Bewildered June 6, 2012 at 10:04 pm
Al, let's give it a break for awhile and enjoy the quiet of no negative ads or robo-calls. No need to go after Lyle. Your guy ( and mine) won. He is aware of that, trust me.
The Anti-Alinsky June 7, 2012 at 01:39 am
One last comment to add to JB, Alfred and Steve's brilliant ones:
If Moneybags doesn't do his research and invests in a firm or product that is not selling, he ends up losing his money. It's not wasted since the workers get paid, but he doesn't get any return on his investment.
The Anti-Alinsky June 7, 2012 at 02:18 pm
Lyle, Victor and Randy,
Elmer Fudd may be better able to explain it to you. Skip to 4:50 if you really don't want the background story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUGJmo7XzS8
Randy1949 June 7, 2012 at 03:11 pm
That was a tad simplistic, Anti. For one thing, it didn't explain how anyone in his town could afford boots if he was getting his labor for free and wasn't hiring townspeople to make them. And when was that cartoon made? Looks like its over fifty years old.
The Anti-Alinsky June 7, 2012 at 05:01 pm
Randy you really are a doof.
Go ahead and hold onto your ignorance. In the mean time Governor Walker is moving this state forward by creating an environment where we will grow jobs and prosper. You just go ahead and stay bitter and miserable while the rest of the state celebrates. And yes, it is that simple!!!
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