May I ask Ron, if as a teacher, you ever give your students tests? Testing isn't about teacher bashing, although those teachers that perform at a low level are most likely to determine that it is.

The fundamental reason for state standardized testing isn't about how much a child learns, but is the curriculum aligned to the state standards. I'm dumbfounded at the number of educators and administrators don't know this.

I'm serious about the above question, and then contemplate the reason you give those tests.

Oh, one more thing Ron. I beleve that teachers are contractually given 3.5 hrs of time outside instruction. Is that true?

Interesting information.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/schools/testing/companies.html

These things aren't pushed so heavily without someone standing to gain fluffy profits. If testing wasn't a profitable industry, it would not be an issue. Once again, people are being robbed while paralyzed within manipulated fear.

It is my belief that children should be taught how to learn over what to learn. Testing is almost exclusively done on english and math. In addition to all of the prep time taken to prepare for the testing (which takes away from other subjects), any negative results also means a negative cash flow - not just for english and math - but, for all of the other subjects taught as well.
I think that testing during the earlier years of a student is helpful. Students need basic skills before moving ahead. I believe that we don't need to spend enormous amounts of money to any particular company in order to ensure that all of these tests are standardized. (I remember the smell of purple mimeograph ink - I turned out okay)
Standardized tests are not designed to measure learning ability from every demographic group. It further promotes the "winner take all" curriculum. Our public education system can not afford to ignore those found to be "losers" based on these tests, and, further handicap schools that rely on funds based on testing results.
As can be gathered, I am not a fan of standardized testing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/28/opinion/collins-a-very-pricey-pineapple.html?_r=0

If your students consistantly did poorly on these tests, isn't that a measure of how well you are performing? How would you suggest we measure teacher performance?

Those that despise testing are those that usually have consistently poor results.

To CowDung,
As stated, I agree that we need to measure basic skills during the earlier grades. I don't think it necessary to spend a lot on standardized testing supplies in order for that to be done.

There is a place for some type of standardized test to determine if curriculum is working but ... these tests take DAYS and I know kids who just start filling in any answer just to get done with them instead of answering questions with thought and consideration.

So I'm all for evaluation, but we need a shorter, more concise way of doing it.

Ron, if we spent a little less time on mandates like labor history, perhaps you'd have a little more time available to do obvious and much needed testing. Nice dodge in the meantime.

I am disappointed that most overlook what Ron has offered. Most of his anxiety in the classroom - as he offered it - exists whether or not there is testing.

I expect, at over $80,000 a year in compensation, Ron is equipped for the challenge of e l e m e n t a r y teaching.

I wish we could erase the blackboard and go back to fundamentals. I don't think the taxpayer is getting a commensurate product.

Randy, I'll remember your stance when going to the polls. Thanks.

Hmmm... Neither Ron nor Randy can answer the questions I asked. I'll try again...What alternative to offer or is Ron just blowing smoke and making an excuse for his teaching abilities? I don't want to jump to that conclusion, but if you are going to write how bad it is, then maybe yu would have taken time to think about a solution, rather than whine about it.

Who usually performs the Phonological Awareness Literacy Screening? Certainly it cannot be the kindergarten classroom teacher. It seems to me that the payoff is huge if they can identify those who need additional/special services to help bring them up to grade level literacy rather than let them struggle and fall farther behind. I think that the sooner that students in need can be helped, the better off they will be.

I think kids these days cannot compete in the real world, especially against those of countries like Japan, China, and India, precisely because of teachers like Ron Clone.

Nobody fails, everyone passes, and scores and testing are bad. We are all exactly the same, no winners no losers. Tell that to China. LOL.

I am amazed at how negative these comments are. I spend hours every week volunteering in my daughters' elementary school and I am blown away but the enthusiasm put forth by these under appreciated teachers. They are creative and supportive and work so hard to teach the children but as Ron mentioned, the children have lives outside of school and that has a direct effect on how they perform on these tests. He's not saying all testing is bad but the shear quantity of time spent on these test is out of control. And to take the results from these tests and say that is how a class is doin makes no sense. The teachers test the children on the materials they are learning. And then they use the results to create their next lesson plan. Do they need to review a subject because many kids were confused or do they move on? Can they speed up the curriculum because everyone gets it? I think you should all spend more time volunteering in schools and less time complaining! There is a problem with our education system but it won't get fixed by sitting around and blaming teachers. Get involved or shut up! If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.

Funny how so many are outraged when Grothman was critical of Kwanzaa celebrations in schools (how much time is spent on that each year?), but complain that testing takes away too much teaching time...

"There is no time during the school day for this to take place. It happens on weekends and evenings, time better spent lesson planning or, heaven forbid, allowing a teacher to spend time with their family and friends." REALLY?

Testing is the beginning of the process not the end.

Then we start holding teachers, students and parents accountable. Better classes for those that can or want, and nominal for those that don't care.

IT is not the only measure, but it is a critical measure. Without testing we have no way to know if the teaching is any good, if the student is properly focused, and if the parents are involved adequately.
When teachers complain about testing I know it is all about the teachers.

So, according to this teacher, we should just instruct, instruct, instruct! And hope everyone learns everything and then send them onto the next grade without actually, what's the word.....oh yeah, TESTING them? Yes, kids have lives outside of school that can affect their performance, but if we start using that as an excuse for poor test results, then how is anyone ever held accountable for the quality of education students are receiving? I attended public schools from 2nd grade through my Masters degree, and I took probably 1000s of tests, I never once thought "this is too much!". Teachers teach, students listen, do homework, do projects, and then take a test to see what they learned. I can't begin to imagine what our education system would look like without testing.

Teachers like Ron don't want accountability.

Ron, they are building a brand new airplane. And they will use your theory of no testing. It only wastes time. And after flying for a while, guess what? No testing, waste of time. So Ron, you will be the one that can fly in that plane, seeing you don't have a problem with no testing. Good luck!

This will be my only comment. You gentlemen make me weary with your inane, uninformed comments. Of course I know testing is an important part of teaching. I give math quizzes and tests on a regular basis. Reading tests are also a routine part of instruction. I also evaluate projects constantly, from Powerpoints to iMovies to charts, posters and any other method for my students to demonstrate learning. Furthermore, I check papers daily and adjust instruction accordingly. I am accountable to my students and parents and the taxpayers of Wisconsin. The point of my article was to inform readers that we are mandated to use standardized tests, in my humble opinion, entirely too much and it hurts instructional time. A standardized test is not as useful as daily observation and interaction with my students.
I have been teaching for nearly forty years and still love coming to school every day. I also learn from my students every day. It is an amazing career and I am so glad that I chose this path.

Continued... I know that in the '70's, we gave two standardized tests a year in Michigan, the Michigan Educational Assessment Program (MEAP) and the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS). Those results went into the students' files to be used only by counselors. Our current tests, the MAP and AIMSWeb are useful, to a point, but mostly confirm what we already know about our students. They take hours from instruction and meaningful interaction while also creating a hatred for and fear of tests in many students. The WKCE is a sham. We administer it in October and get the results back in April. It is used solely for judging schools. In the beginning years of the MEAP, it was expressly forbidden to even publish results. That changed in the late 70's and early 80's.
Now, I fully expect the personal attacks to continue because that's the way you gentlemen roll. I have given you more fodder. Enjoy! You provide endless entertainment for me and my friends who read this. More importantly, re-read the last paragraph of my article. It may ruin the fun, but we don't tolerate bullying in my school so why should we here?

The fact that Ron has not responded speaks volumes.

Ron: 3rd party achievement tests measure the effectiveness of teacher and system. Over time, the results conclude level of achievement and trend. You obviously fail to understand that and demonstrate how out of touch you are. Much like Obama running the Nation without a budget ... Blind, deaf and flying at 2,500 feet in a fog with low fuel and a 5,000 mountain range just ahead.

Hello, I was the MAP proctor at Real. Some of the kids tested above and beyond expectations others had not mastered basic concepts such as multiplication tables which was reflected in their scores. The problem I saw was the teachers took the test results and used them more for parent teacher conferences then for remedial lesson planning. Current district goals for unification and adherence to projected district lesson plans don't allow time for a teacher teaching in Unified to review and reteach to use supplemental materials as drills as they strive to teach mastery. Some parents will complain if we send home supplemental work. We teach for instance parts of speech starting in K but we never insist on evidence of mastery before they leave elementary. I believe the rationale is the district doesn't have space in the up coming class to hold kids that really should be detained. In the 12 years that I worked for the district I can truly state that the teachers in Unified are not the "big" problem. I don't think it's the kids and the homes they come from either. The children's classroom behaviors were/are. School is our environment, the kids are there to learn. I can't help but believe that we need to insist on zero tolerance starting at the K level. It's my opinion that parents need to come in for a day or a week or however long it takes when I have problems daily with their child to experience first hand what their child is doing and help me correct undesired behaviors.

Hey guys... let's try to keep the conversation productive. I appreciate those of you who have kept to the topic and treated Ron with respect. I've already had to delete a few comments that were flaming/attacking/off topic. Thanks!

I have to agree with Ron, get the government out of the school system .. and by that i mean totally, what do we need forced government indoctrination for? Eric Holder is already tring to outlaw Homeschooling .. he says it isn't a right to teach your kids, the government knows what propaganda to teach your kids

" My point is that unless you have been in that position as a classroom teacher, or for that part a proctor I don't believe you should be making judgement calls."

That is pure rubbish touted by the unions to avoid accountability

AM, remember, Racine fired the superintendent who implemented Map and the reading and math instructions that were built into it. We were working with two hour reading and language blocks and if my memory is correct an hour of math. All four for instance 2nd grade classrooms split the children per their MAP scores into groups. Each teacher had two groups. We worked one on one with one group for twenty minute intervals while the other group did desk work. Lesson plans were difficult at first at least for me but the fringe was I had kids that were all at about the same achievement level. When they hit a snag we slowed down, when they grabbed a concept and ran we sped up. Our Map scores were just beginning to reflect increased learning when it was canned along with the superintendent. We also learned via MAP testing that our Signature’s Reading Book was weak in Vocabulary. The district purchased Story Time the new reading and language series. We also divided the kids for Math instructions. I thought we were moving in the right direction when it was all canceled. The teacher with the lowest score/achievement kids in either subject generally only had a couple of very low skills remedial students leaving the teacher with the ability in regular classroom instruction time to work very small group, and one on one.

Without separating the kids by achievement as a teacher you know in a regular classroom when were instructing kids with a wide range of achievement and skills that were teaching the average student not the advanced or our greatest weakness, the remedial. The point I’m trying to emphasis is we have to have all of the parts to build a solid base and structure. Perhaps your right AM. To what purpose is MAP currently being used if we are only using the testing not the instructions critical to complete implementation and learning.

I would like to interject a little information about our so called good school system RUSD. Having a relative who attended the so called "best elementary school" in RUSD, and from kindergarten though second grade was a straight A student. They had to move, so they attended an elementary school to the north of Racine. We thought that the great grades would continue in third grade. WRONG! Seems this child was almost a half of year behind. Struggled through, and is doing fine again in fourth grade. And surprise, they do a fair amount of testing in that district.

Lets be clear the test are a tool. They are not the only tool and they are not the ANSWER, they are one of the measures used to determine how individual students and the school district as a whole is performing.

Don not let teachers suggest that only they have the power to identify issues because they know the secret sauce. The reality is that much can be realized through simple eye tests.

If I see a doctor I can tell if his treatments are effective. I may not know what my treatments should be but I know that if the Doctor is continually under-performing, I would be a fool to keep returning to him for treatment.

When my child had map test they did something Amazing. They said he was low in this area in math---we will work on on. He worked on it and test scores went up. I do not need an advanced degree to know that without testing we would not have found the issue and been able to solve it.