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The Biden Principle

This post is a product of a couple of comments on the Patch blog. One asked something along the lines of "don't I care for the poor." The other "that he'd be happy to pay more taxes if it meant the safety net would be wider."

The right often jumps back with a response along the lines of the safety net is big enough and of course I care for the poor. Republicans contribute more overall than Democrats to charity.

We can take Vice President Joe Biden as an example. His tax returns are notorious for documenting little in the way of charitable giving. In 2011 Biden had close to $400,000 in income and $5,350 in donations. By the way, if you want to see how you might rank there are tables at the bottom of this 2011 article you can use to compare your contributions against the others who file taxes in our country.

It dawned on me, as intuitive as it is to push back on the usual rhetoric with a standard reply, that we need to have a different discussion. It seems the left and the right have a fundamental difference in our approach to what constitutes generosity. Biden must represent the side of the argument which says as long as he's paying taxes, "it's in there." He's paying his version of a United Way donation with that tax bill. He doesn't have to contribute anything more. 

Think of it like I was taught to consider tithing. Theoretically if I pop 10% of my income for the church, I shouldn't have to worry about being nickled and dimed. (Such a lost concept by the way. Now they just assume I can afford it and always come for more.) The plan was to offer a biblical share and then assume the church would manage the donation for the greater good.

Others, though, prefer to direct a donation to a group most likely to provide good works in the manner of one's own priorities. I'd say that's what all those generous Republicans are doing. Why trust the government to distribute funds in the cause of the greater good when government constantly makes decisions contrary to my own goals?

So what we're fighting about here is the same reason we always argue. We battle over who gets to choose the winners and losers. Under our current method of the government assuming the responsibility for a safety net, our tithes end up in Caesar's hands along with the taxes collected to build roads.

In my experience every time taxes are used to benefit society's neediest there are hurdles in place for the organizations who want to gain access to that money. Want federal funds to provide health care to a community? You need to provide birth control and abortions. Want great highways with federal money? You have to set a speed limit within federal guidelines. 

What if we all bowed to the concept of raising taxes but stopped giving to churches who support the poor and to homeless shelters and to NGOs who build libraries in Guatemala. What hurdles would go up for those organizations to get access to government funding? How many new layers of expensive bureaucracy would be required to support the new method of distribution and chip away at those bottom lines and the amount actually used to benefit the needy? Right now there are strict guidelines as to what amount of total revenue must make its way to the service line in order to stay a legitimate 501(c)3 organization. Those requirements don't exist for government.

Plus, the one comment was almost chiding me for being stingy because I didn't want to pay more in taxes. I replied that he was allowing himself to feel glorified by his magnanimity. It is as though he wouldn't support the poor unless he was made to do so by law. Of course that didn't go over well, but what I'd like to continue in the argument is that he's actually abdicating his personal responsibility to the poor by assigning that to the government. Jesus said, "the poor will always be with you." I can't imagine that will change because the government picks up more tax money and redistributes it. 

Between supporting extended family members, charitable contributions like United Way, church, and taxes including various fees and property taxes, more than 60% of our family income goes out already. Now it's a generous income, and I'm certainly well fed (oh, gosh, and I know I just opened myself to the comment I played above regarding magnanimity) but please consider my question: How much am I supposed to give before it's considered my fair share?

In the end this argument is over whether or not I'm a lioness free to roam the savanna or if I will be locked in a cage. Whether I'm able to determine by my own priorities in how my money will be spent or if I must abdicate that responsibility to what one might perceive as a benevolent government when in fact it is always choosing winners and losers. 

And yes. I'll fight for that.

dave

7:33 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

Democrats like Biden are all about giving - giving your tax dollars away to the people they think are most deserving. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will understand that you will not be getting anything - until you are a poor and unemployed

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James R Hoffa

8:22 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

@Cindy:

"How much am I supposed to give before it's considered my fair share?"

Good luck getting any of the liberals that post here to answer this question for you with any kind of specificity - I've been trying for quite some time and only ever get generalized responses.

But I'll answer that question for you with Hoffa's proposed federal tax code (subject to revision):

Federal Sales Tax (applicable to ALL transactions): 1.85%

Federal Income Tax (applicable to all gross income and eliminates income adjustment - deductions, exemptions, itemized write-offs, loop holes, eit credits, etc., except in limited circumstances as is necessary to facilitate fairness):

$0 - $75,000 - 8%
$75k - $150k - 10.5%
$150k - $225k - 13%
$225k+ - 15%

Federal Cap Gains Tax (short & long term, bracket neutral): 18%

Federal Corp Profit Tax Non-Manufacturing (offset only by legitimate losses for up to 3 years carried forward): 18%

Federal Corp Profit Tax Manufacturing (offset only by legitimate losses for up to 3 years carried forward): 15%

FICA and FUTA Taxes: reform to opt-in programs and set rates accordingly.

All other federal taxes, with the exception of the federal excise taxes on petro fuels, alcohol, and tobacco products and trade tariffs/taxes with unfair trading nations, will be eliminated.

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Luke

9:19 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

I married an immigrant (German Russian), and so did my brother and two sisters (Hmong from Laos). I can, sadly, say that I have witnessed what too much government support has done to people who once only dreamed of having enough food to eat. Once they had enough food, their motivation to do documented career work was gone. Keeping that saftey net was job #1.

Thankfully, their kids (our spouses) understood what America had to offer, and they got out of the inner city, got educated and got excellent jobs or started businesses.

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$$andSense

10:17 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

Son o'Doofa

“We announced two goals for the Teamsters in 2008: To organize 40,000 workers and to elect Barack Obama President of the United States. I am proud to say that thanks to the hard work by so many in our union, the Teamsters delivered on both promises.”

Compliments Wikipedia.

So James P. Hoffa (son o’ James R. Sr.) is your daddy. Please correct if wrong.

Hmmmm... mr. gen x conservative. You claim to be the man's kid or grandchild. Still condemn the president and unions? Your response will be quite interesting.

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James R Hoffa

10:37 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

@$$andNonsense -

Ummm.... apparently, you have a reading problem, as James P. Hoffa would be my son, and not the other way around - as you can clearly see, my name is James R(iddle) Hoffa. Under my leadership, the Teamsters proudly endorsed and supported Richard M. Nixon in all three of his Presidential runs! I also hated the Kennedy's and LBJ with a deep unbridled passion! Yes, unfortunately, my son is severely misguided in his acceptance of a deeply flawed political ideology. But you can't blame me for that! Maybe James P. should try reading some of the books written by his old man!

When did Hoffa ever condemn private sector unions other than to say that they got extremely lazy and lost their way due to poor leadership and a flawed ideology?

You damn right Hoffa still condemns the President! If the real James Riddle Hoffa were alive today, he'd be endorsing and personally voting for Mitt Romney, no questions about it!

Next time, I suggest you read for detail and bone up on your history before launching a completely erroneous personal attack, as it makes you look very sad!

$$andSense

11:03 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

And anyone takes you seriously? And Elvis and Hitler are also alive? And you were abducted by aliens? What a LOONEY!!!! Only the internet can give this kind of license to the mentally impaired!!!! Take a vacation dude. This one is definitely being saved for the crazy files. Hoffa says... WHAT A JOKE!!! Sign on with the crazy if you want to folks. Elvis just walked in. LOL LOL LOL!!!!!

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James R Hoffa

11:34 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

Hoffa says that $$andNonsense is envious because Hoffa is 'da man' and he is not!

$$andSense

11:45 pm on Tuesday, July 17, 2012

Envious of not having mental health issues? LOONEY!! Drugs are bad for your brain DOOFA!!

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Cindy Kilkenny

11:12 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

So no declarations as to the importance of contributing to charities or anyone confessing they've cut back as taxes increased?

I think I could put up the words "red" and "blue" and you all would still go after each other.

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James R Hoffa

11:28 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

As an independent contractor and small business owner, as Hoffa's taxes have increased, Hoffa has definitely had to cut back on his charitable contributions, but still averages around $5,000 / yr that either Hoffa personally or his business gives away to charitable causes. That number used to be north of $7k. With Obamacare implementation looming, Hoffa is planning on cutting back even more. And if the Democrats get their way in increasing the minimum wage, Hoffa will have little choice but to cut back even more.

Thanks a lot big government!

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Randy1949

9:58 am on Monday, July 23, 2012

See below. My charitable contributions decreased along with my income, but there were other factors such as raising a family (the child's education fund is much more important than the Humane Society or the GSA) and increases in my cost of living. Taxes play a part -- the property tax sucks up a great deal of disposable income.

Cindy Kilkenny

11:28 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Wow. A comment thread appears to have disappeared. Same for everyone else or something on my end?

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Bob McBride

11:39 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

They come and go and come back again (for some reason) and sometimes they go for good (certain posters seem to be regular targets for removal).

Don't worry about it. We'll make more.

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Cindy Kilkenny

11:40 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Well for the record I think we could use a legitimate discussion on the right to opinion and also on racism.

I'm profoundly discouraged that big brother might be at work here. It's probably going to affect my decision to stay. (Don't worry. I'm well aware most of you won't miss me.)

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CowDung

11:53 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

I think there's a difference between making a racism based attack on a poster and making a racist statement. I think that statements that may be viewed as racist should be allowed to stay and be judged by the reader.

Statements that involve personal attacks against people posting on the thread should probably be removed.

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Cindy Kilkenny

11:56 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@CowDung - I very much like the way you phrased that. Thanks.

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Bob McBride

1:16 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

"Big Brother" owns the forum.

mau

11:40 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Cut all foreign aid. Take care of our own US citizens.

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Cindy Kilkenny

11:41 am on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Oh, @mau, you are preaching to the choir in your comment. I can be so isolationist sometimes. But then I've already confessed to a B- in foreign relations. ;)

Bren

12:39 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Thanks for the link to a 2008 article on "conservative" Tom Bevan's "politically diverse" internet "newspaper." (My quote key is wearing out!.) Here's a link (which uses data culled from the American Association of Fundraising Counsel) which indicates that giving to religious organizations represents roughly 35% of all charitable giving as of FYE2010. As organized religion is an important part of conservative life it is not unexpected that per-dollar giving could be higher due to this form of giving (Giving USA: Faith-based charities, including churches, received the most charitable gifts in 2010, capturing $100.63 billion – 35 percent of total contributions in 2010. Religious groups received more than a third of all contributions in the U.S.) http://www.nps.gov/partnerships/fundraising_individuals_statistics.htm How many conservatives only give to religious organizations? It will be interesting to see stats from 2011 and 2012 with the rise of the 501(c)(4) Super PACs.

I think it's important to parse the data thoroughly to glean further understanding. Your main theme seems similar to J.B. Schmidt's in a different blog--promoting the same meme that the U.S. labors under an authoritarian government instead of a democratic republic.

Our issue is more about cleaning house of elected officials who are more loyal to benefactors/special interests than their country. What do we do about that, Cindy?

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James R Hoffa

1:27 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@Bren -

"Our issue is more about cleaning house of elected officials who are more loyal to benefactors/special interests than their country. What do we do about that, Cindy?"

How can you in good faith say something like this while acknowledging your support and voting for Tom Barrett in the recall election instead of independent candidate Hari Trivedi?

And who will you be supporting for President exactly?

Your hypocrisy runs so deep that you actually own a car that was assembled in what you refer to as a right-to-work-for-less-state with non-unionized labor, despite your constant claims to be against such a policy position.

You must get dizzy from all the spinning you do to convince yourself that you're not a huge hypocrite!

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Cindy Kilkenny

2:17 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@Bren - So you're good with intimating my sources aren't worth your time and then you wonder about this or that to push the data down the road. Impressive statement you made there.

The article is actually George Will quoting Arthur C. Brooks. Just because you don't like what it says doesn't mean it's not true.

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Bren

11:40 pm on Sunday, July 22, 2012

Tom Bevan co-founded the online fishwrap you linked to. I found Brooks' study of "happiness" (conservative v. liberal) interesting. I prefer to go to the source you see. True conservatives of my acquaintance are very generous (with a few exceptions) because they believe in providing tools for success. But as I indicated above, many people give to their church as their philanthropic efforts (which is wonderful because churches provide many humanitarian services) As I also indicated, FY12 giving will be interesting.

Mr. Hoffa, I was interested in Mr. Trivedi. He is the exemplar for the need to roll back Citizens United and radically reform campaign financing. Mayor Barrett was (and still is) the best choice for Wisconsin, by experience, related education, and temperament.

More wild accusations of hypocrisy. Yawn.

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James R Hoffa

12:28 am on Monday, July 23, 2012

@Bren -

I do believe that you owe Hoffa many citations!

I'm still waiting on the following from you:

Cite to Ryan's Path or budget that expressly excepts members of Congress.
Cite to Ryan's Path or budget that expressly gives oil companies $43B in tax breaks.
Cite or link to documents showing that the Walker administration provided Diane Hendricks and Georgia Pacific specific tax breaks, that only benefited them, outside the general jobs incentive tax break program.
Cite or link connecting Holmes's acts to Rush Limbaugh's comments about the new Batman film.

How could Mayor Barrett be the best for Wisconsin when he is "more loyal to benefactors/special interests than [his city]?" Are you honestly telling us that the people who invested millions in the recall election and his campaign weren't looking to get something from him if he won?

So then, I guess you didn't mind John Nichols calling Mayor Barrett immoral on the Ed Show on the night of the election?

"More wild accusations of hypocrisy. Yawn."

Bren - when someone fails to walk their own talk, hypocrisy is precisely what that is. Spin as much as you like because the truth hurts, but that still doesn't change the truth, does it?

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Cindy Kilkenny

8:00 am on Monday, July 23, 2012

@Bren, sweetheart, since your instinct to hate seems to overrule you instinct towards accuracy I'll give you the syndicated George Will article from the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/26/AR2008032602916.html?sub=AR

Now in my heart I know you won't hold that publication in any higher esteem, but it will ate least provide you with another publication to disparage instead of having to admit the contents of the article to your obviously very sensitive self.

Johnny Blade

12:54 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Umm Bren .. we get back to the constitution, they have way to much power, if they couldn't influence every gosh garn thing with thier endless laws .. we would be free ... BUt what we have is Fascism .. Corporate control over government .. and Obama or Romeny will not change that

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Bren

1:04 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Johnny, some scholars have used the term "proto-fascism" to describe some of the actions of the Bush Administration. But I believe the danger we face is of an oligarchic plutocracy. The Tea/GOP fringe of the Republican Party is funded by would-be plutocrats. Romney could be considered one of these (his true wealth cannot be determined because of the offshore accounts).

Unless and until voters stop allowing themselves to be manipulated, and pay attention to the actions of officials after they are elected, the problem will exacerbate.

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James R Hoffa

1:39 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@Bren -

When exactly has Romney proven himself to be a plutocrat? Or are all rich guys automatically plutocrats? Funny that I never hear you claiming the same about George Soros, despite the fact that he's also very politically involved and could buy Romney 50 times over and still have a fortune left over!

You claim that you want someone who won't be beholden to special interests - well, isn't someone who's already wealthy less likely to tempted by special interest money and its influences?

Unlike you, Hoffa does pay attention. And what Hoffa saw was President Obama allowing large campaign contributors/bundlers access to the White House, despite his promise to close the White House to lobbyists, and those contributors/bundlers walking away with a check made out to them from the American people in the amount of $.5B for something called Solyndra. Ever hear of it?

You complain constantly about Walker being controlled by ALEC and the Kochs, and yet, not a single check has been cut by the State of Wisconsin to either ALEC or the Kochs, has it?!?!

And yet, you still remain silent on Obama's very real display of being beholden to special interests and cronyism - that's absolutely astonishing and proves you to be little more than an extremely partisan hack!

Come on Bren, let's get real here, shall we?

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James R Hoffa

2:07 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@Bren -

Obama extended the Patriot act. Obama signed the NDAA in which he can throw Americans in secret prisions without warrent. Obama has assassinated American citizens without trial. Obama has not ended any wars, but got us involved in new ones. Etc.

What do you call all of that exactly?

And despite all this, you'll still be voting for Obama, won't you?

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Bren

2:36 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Mr. Hoffa, until the extent of Romney's wealth is actually known there can be no comparison between the two.

The issue is that special interests hold far too much power over Congress. The cost of elections today is affecting politics to an inappropriate degree overall. Can't make sense of the rest of your comments really, but I'm always impressed by your volume-rich posts!

Billions was spent on Richard Clarke's Homeland Security program after 9/11, including more hiring of government employees than any administration since Eisenhower. But it wasn't done as well as it should have been to protect the American people. Starting two wars also served to help terrorist recruitment in the Middle East. And now more work, and harder work needs to be done.

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James R Hoffa

2:43 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

@Bren -

Way to dodge, deflect, and distort - all part of the liberal playbook!

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mau

2:55 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Just how rich is RICH? Kennedy, Rockefeller, Kohl, Kerry... Does it matter if a candidate has his own riches or uses other people's riches (Rezko) to run for office? If they aren't rich when they get into office (Clintons) they are when they get out.

Cindy Kilkenny

2:18 pm on Wednesday, July 18, 2012

You know, every once in a while I'm tempted to throw in a "Scott Walker" just to see if anyone still recognizes the man's name!

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Randy1949

9:49 am on Monday, July 23, 2012

"How much am I supposed to give before it's considered my fair share?"

Good question, Cindy. I pay (federal income, state income, property tax) 30% of my gross income. And that's in the lowest federal bracket. I don't have a lot left over for private charity. That decreased as my income did. I also dropped the United Way when someone suggested that each individual had a 'fair share' to donate to them. I would really prefer to choose my own causes to which to donate, thank you very much. My entire family also donated blood for twenty years on a regular schedule.

I found Mr. Will's article and it's conclusions a tad condescending. Interestingly, I never reported by charitable donations on my income tax return (still don't), so I wonder where he gets his figures and if they're accurate.

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