Right on brother! This is the liberal utopian eugenic wet dream, kill off all of the undesirables and create a perfect, healthy human race, where we are all equal(well not the liberal elites, they still get their white wine and brie) and the masses work like slaves to feed the intellectuals!

Yep!The American way of giving 25% of our healthcare dollars to Insurance companies is the best way to control costs and insure the best healthcare we can have.

The fundamental difference between Europe and the U.S., Europeans believe, is that Americans regard public services as a bonus rather than a basic right. For some, this is evidence that the American system is deeply flawed. "It was a scandal that the world's richest country for so long offered its citizens such pitiful protection against illness or injury," wrote Gregor Peter Schmitz, Washington correspondent for Der Spiegel on its website Monday. "It seems entirely possible that, in 10 years time, Americans will find it hard to believe that they didn't always have the right to health insurance."

In Europe, voters demand that their governments offer good public services — including decent education and medical care — and regularly vote them out of office when they fail to deliver. Taxes may be slightly higher in Europe, but medical fees are heavily subsidized by governments and are drastically cheaper than they are in the U.S. The French, for example, pay a fixed $30 for a doctor's visit — and proposals to raise that fee even a few cents can ignite national protests. And in most of Europe, insurance companies are barred from rejecting applicants because of pre-existing conditions.

@Edward Willing...A eloquent piece, but what's the point? You're all over the map with what you have written. It is hard to discern what you are advocating and what you're not. Mr.van der Wal states a relevant point, that other nations and societies have taken the position that healthcare is not a privilege, but a right. Before you start writing shouldn't you establish what Americans' value and what is the foundation of those values. We are a nation of over 300 million, where the largest nation in Europe is somewhere around 80 million. Whatever we do must take into account the huge difference in population sizes and diversity. As far as death panels go, every healthcare insurance company already has death panels in place and are making decisions daily what services they will cover and what they will not. At present the consumer doesn't have any input into those decision without going through the courts.

However, the basic question for you to answer is whether or not healthcare is a right or a privilege.

Many are bracing for the U.S. Government to deploy another crack management team for Obamacare, like we've seen with the Post Office, VA, Department of Education, Department of Energy, Bureau of Indian Affairs, FEMA, Department of Homeland Security ..... Well, you get the point.

Those that condemn health insurance companies will finally get to live the dream of the perfect efficiency of a Government run national health program that is fully acessable to be further tampered with by the self-serving agendas of elected officials.

God help us.

@Mr. R Hoffa Europe is trying and I say trying for it's tough fore them to come to a mutual agreement given the fast difference cultural politics.However Europe is still in the progress of molding a economical and industrial unit.Mr.The original group of nations are still strong economical.The country's you named,Greece,Spain,Italy and of late Turkey who entered the this union are economical weak.Problem for these country's are that they depend heavily on tourism income and to a lesser degree agriculture.You mentioned that to afford this type of care,country's borrow money.And that might be so but healthcare is directly covered by local public and some private institutions like banks and large retirements funds.Indirectly each nation part of the European Union has to pay a contribution which can be used for healthcare and other other types of "industry",so you see country's indeed borrow money from each other but it's paid back through means of means that can benefit all included.Unfortunately due the fact that country's like Spain,Turkey already was weak the burdens are increasing.And granted there is lost of unrest and many feel that secession from this European would benefit.The Gentleman McBride's link is valid but it's not only the Netherlands burden but others as well.
Yet coming back to healthcare,the people from Europe have chosen that this is a burden they choice to keep healthcare available for all to profit from.

I found this link to support my argument,blogged by a American Expat living in Europe on this topic.i will post the link below but she writes that:
expat community around the world and those persons who have international experience to please share their first hand accounts of living under a strong social safety net that includes universal medical for all from cradle-to-grave as a core value. Also while concurrently asking as all workers in the European Union (even low wage workers) receive medical and dental benefits, 20 to 30 days paid vacation, paid sick leave, paid maternity leave, plus many paid holidays off: The excuse that American firms give is that they could go bankrupt if they provided these same benefits to American workers but in the European Union, the same companies provide these benefits and they don't go bankrupt. This clearly we can see with our own eyes.

When will American workers finally wake up, stand up and say we are mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. G.E. and other American multinationals should be providing the same benefits in America as they do in France (by law) and other EU countries. It's a simple issue of social justice for the American working class in order save the American dream.
Of course you guys again wonder why I'm here instead enjoying this European Utopia.All has to do of coming to the US working under the umbrella public relation.Finding himself in a relation and having two goblins to care for.
So other then the excuse of healthcare I don't see reasons to return soon.

Bob your the most charming person here yet...well all most that is.I indeed could figure a way back but then I be running in so many Americans who already have given up living in the USA.That's why I stay here and tell you all about those smart people who moved from here to Europe.
Actually sad,your so much anger and bitterness,if not taking care,one might find you in a hospital with cardiac problems and how to pay that these days right?

@James R Hoffa;thank you for your responds on 1:33 pm on Sunday, November 18,..and yes I think your response is very valid when you say:"The reality is that we can't logistically provide the absolute best medical services to everyone "but by acknowledging this,than you would also acknowledge that if the Obamacare is not preferred,today's healthcare is not all that great either and much needs improvement to get it at least more workable for the General public.
To use the free market system as tool and possible preferable over bureaucratically red tape to leave each chose their medical needs.If it works for all Americans not a few.

See Bob that's the beauty of a friendly relation between both country's, I indeed plan to a obtain US citizenship and still able by law to keep my Dutch citizenship...isn't that just lovely.
And yes I will do that next year we all need to worry for the quality of life here in the USA and it should concern all who lives here LEGALLY!
And to vote so to convince ppl like yourself that Welfare has nothing to do with equal healthcare.

Rather than outright decide not to participate in the state run pools, I would have liked to have seen Walker go back to the Obama Administration with a proposal stating that he'd set up the state run pools if the Obama administration would allow him to take the $2000/employee penalty for not providing health insurance to all state and municipal public employees, union and otherwise, and allow them to source their insurance through the pools or pay the penalty and go w/o.

@Bob McBride I am not at all banking of this Obama care plan but it has people talking about it and maybe that's all it needs to find other solutions.
Out of Pocket payments might have worked 100 years back but due the increasing care prices hardly realistic.I really have come to the end of this discussion for it is again one that keeps repeating itself.
One think I agree with you though:this Obama healthcare plan is probably going to make health care more expensive.
Bob I hope you never have to enjoy a vacation oversees and to find yourself enjoying a beer in Europe that has nothing more then a welfare continent.

*grin.... isn't that what us Europeans did when they came to America a few 100 years back and faced off the natives here,be superior.
Anyway thank you for your complimentary words,my contributions are only able due the fact of such fine teachers here on the Patch.However I was not trying to come over "superior" and find it sad you are so effected by such notion.i nearly was trying to offer a comparison without insulting the USA system.
One thing we agree on again one can just drop the engine from a Volvo into a Chevrolet and expect it to operate.Volvo's are waaay to good for that. :)

"This is what you don't understand about this country, Fred. It's not like Europe. You can't just take what you accept as the norm over there and insert into our system here, anymore than you can just drop the engine from a Volvo into a Chevrolet and expect it to operate."

The Elephant in the room is that Europe has almost no indigenous oil supplies and that the North Sea is fast depleting. Without imported oil, there is no functioning Europe, and Europe is slowly being shut down. Unemployment amongst the young is an epidemic - and without cheap energy, it cannot be changed. The Euro will become worthless. This is happening very quickly - what then of the European system?

"The countries which carry the greatest debt burdens and have the least means to service and repay the debts are also Europe’s energy deadbeats. Don’t believe me, see for yourself: "

http://www.economic-undertow.com/2011/06/27/dead-money/

Europe will not survive in it's present form much longer, in a post peak oil world. Death will once again become a large part of life, and the socialist system they boast of will rapidly disintegrate.

Fred has every reason to come to America for safety - because he knows what is coming to Europe - without oil - death will stalk the land.

"Spain's Unpleasant Choice: Accept Lower Wages and Still Higher Unemployment, Leave the Euro and Default"

Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/11/spains-unpleasant-choice-accept-lower.html#zo3LzWfKzkLDDP1U.99

" Real Estate Sales Collapse in Paris and Ile-de-France; New Home Starts Lowest Since 1998; VAT Hike to Make Matters Much Worse"

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/11/real-estate-sales-collapse-in-paris-and.html

"European Industrial Production Plunges 2.3 Percent; Greece GDP Plunges 7.2 Percent"

Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/11/european-industrial-production-plunges.html#FFRCKmf31UriUVBI.99

"Millions of Europeans joined together in general strikes and demonstrations on Wednesday to protest the strict austerity measures undertaken by their countries. In Portugal and Spain, hard hit by the debt crisis, locals conducted a 24-hour general strike that largely paralyzed public infrastructure, suspending train service and grounding hundreds of flights, in addition to shutting down factories."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/anti-austerity-protests-spark-violence-in-european-countries-a-867316.html

Tell us again about that Superior European system and how much longer it will exist...

"Fatih Birol, chief economist at the International Energy Agency, the western countries’ oil watchdog, says Europe spent €32bn to import oil in March. This month, the bill is on track to be €27bn. In the US, oil imports cost $33.5bn in March, and will be $27.5bn in June, he says. Emerging economies, particularly China, Indonesia and India, should see fiscal burdens fall as lower subsidies are required.

Fresh oil supplies from Saudi Arabia, as well as North America, are only one reason why prices have declined. Lower prices are also a symptom of weakening economic growth.

“Yes, prices have come down, but they have come down precisely because economies are not doing well,” says Lutz Kilian, economist at the University of Michigan. “The question of what the oil price is doing to the economy is really ill-posed, because it’s actually the economy that’s doing something to the oil price.”

http://newsoninvest.com/?p=7737

Once again: “The question of what the oil price is doing to the economy is really ill-posed, because it’s actually the economy that’s doing something to the oil price.”

I'm sure Europe will continue without death will stalking the land.Actually that happened when there was no healthcare....Peace out guys enjoy the evening

Concerning Millions in Europe Striking to protest Austerity...

"This is what happens when after decades of socialism, the money to pay for the freebies finally runs out. To be sure, this is a bit too simplistic. We are inclined to sympathize with the demonstrators for the following reason: instead of liquidating unsound credit and letting a few over-extended banks and their bondholders bite the dust, the eurocrats have decided to spread the joys of bankruptcy around and let their populations pay the bill. In most cases the poorest members of society have been hit the hardest.

Most of the people thronging the streets don't fully understand what has happened. They don't realize that the deadly combination of a cradle-to-grave welfare state with a centrally planned fractionally reserved banking system has produced a terminal boom and that there is simply no painless way out of the situation anymore. There never was. An enormous amount of wealth has been squandered and consumed during the boom.

Radical pro free market economic reform is called for, but this is apparently neither recognized, nor does anyone have the guts to implement it. And so the European Chinese water torture version of 'austerity', which includes only a shrinking private sector, but not a shrinking government, continues without offering any light at the end of the tunnel to the people living in the periphery."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/guest-post-europe-grip-anti-austerity-protests

I some ways I think Europe may be at turning point. The lethal mixture of economic turmoil and an incursion by immigrants is beginning to break the liberals hold on mainstream politics and the media, and their censorship and intimidation of those who reject their dream of a multicultural society. One needs to look no further that the Norwegian killer, Anders Breivik; one example of the consequences of liberal suppression of the interests and natural instincts of human beings. I think Europe is starting to wake up; hopefully the Conservatives over there can stop the destruction brought on by the liberals.

A couple things, the links earlier on posted describes demonstrations of mostly South European countries who need to tighten their belts fair enough. However is Europe on the brink of a change as WPN1488 hoped for. You just have to see at French who only a few months ago gained a most left orientated government. Many of these demonstrations there are about how money is divided among it's citizens and the Conservatives always end up on the loosing end.
When you look ad most countries political parties it's obvious not the same as here. Instead of a Republican and Democrat society, Europe's political is more splintered and diverse...A single conservative party is often too small to form a government needs to find common ground with the more left. And visa verse the same. Some governments exist out of several different parties with slightly different interests.
Something to keep in mind as well is that the most Conservative political party is still more left then here in the USA. Politics always chance and that's part of democratically processes, same here as there.
And you guys have to at least agree with this, that politics has become more global. American politics effects Europe and America very well needs Europe's support to sustain it's foothold in the world.
But maybe we wondering to far from the original topic from Edward Willing here.

"A couple things, the links earlier on posted describes demonstrations of mostly South European countries who need to tighten their belts fair enough."

It is the Southern countries, that are 100% dependent upon oil imports, that have borrowed from the Northern Countries, like France and Germany. The problem is that they are heavily in debt, and cannot pay that debt back without generating a return on that borrowed money - and the only way they can generate a return is if the oil they import is used to create products which they can export to return a profit above and beyond the cost of all inputs, including the oil. They are not doing this - nor can they. Remember, the Crude Oil trade is done in dollars - Euros' are swapped for dollars, and crude bought. Also - Europe pays Brent Crude Oil prices, NOT WTI. Brent is currently: $111.22/bbl.

http://www.barchart.com/commodityfutures/Energies

NOW, the Germans and French, by making loans to the Southern Countries did a brisk business of exporting products to them because they were flush with the borrowed money to purchase them. However, buying and selling goods doesn't pay back the debt, and the Elephant in the room was the outflow of Euros for Dollars for Crude Oil to keep their 21st. C industrial infrastructure running. NOW - the debts are so big that no amount of borrowing can service the debt and pay for crude.

That is a DILEMMA, because industrial civilization collapses without crude oil.

Eurozone crisis: if Greece goes, Germany's prosperity goes with it

"If the eurozone were to shrink, Germany's once-captive markets would become too poor to import: and the rapid appreciation of a stronger euro would make its exports much pricier."

There is no palatable outcome. They can only kick the can farther down the road
until they can't. It's a nightmare for the Southern Countries - because who would take Lira, Pesetas, or Drachma for crude? No Crude Oil = no 21st. C industrial civilization. IF Germany and France leave the Euro - the Euro drops in value and can't buy enough crude for the remaining countries to exist within a 21st. C industrial civilization.?

"Germany last week found itself able to borrow for two years at the astonishingly low rate of 0.07%. Very nice too: but surely the real message Angela Merkel and her colleagues must take from the successful auction of those zero-coupon schatz bunds is that the single currency simply isn't working.

All the money wants to flow in one direction: towards Germany. It is only the efforts of the European Central Bank, as a giant recycler of liquidity to dry areas of the eurozone banking system, that is ensuring a stability of sorts. This position can't be sustained."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/27/eurozone-greece-germany-prosperity

"The lethal mixture of economic turmoil and an incursion by immigrants is beginning to break the liberals hold on mainstream politics and the media, and their censorship and intimidation of those who reject their dream of a multicultural society."

"In austerity-ravaged Greece, neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn is on the rise. Their MPs give fascist salutes, while on the streets black-shirted vigilantes beat up immigrants. And some of their most enthusiastic supporters are in the police.

You can hear it from blocks away: the deafening beat of Pogrom, Golden Dawn's favourite band, blasting out of huge speakers by a makeshift stage. "Rock for the fatherland, this is our music, we don't want parasites and foreigners on our land…"

It's a warm October evening and children on bicycles are riding up and down among the young men with crew cuts, the sleeves of their black T-shirts tight over pumped-up biceps, strolling with the stiff swagger of the muscle-bound. They look relaxed, off-duty. Two of them slap a handshake: "Hey, fascist! How's it going?"

Trestle tables are stacked with Golden Dawn merchandise: black T-shirts bearing the party's name in Greek, Chrysi Avgi, the sigma shaped like the S on SS armbands; mugs with the party symbol, a Greek meander drawn to resemble a swastika; Greek flags and black lanyards, lighters and baseball caps."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/26/golden-dawn-greece-far-right

"The True Finns finished just behind the conservative NCP and the Social Democrats on around 19%.

While the Social Democrats have called for changes on EU bail-outs, including the planned Portuguese rescue, True Finns opposes the plans altogether.

A hostile Finnish government could theoretically veto the package.

Unlike other eurozone countries, Finland's parliament can vote on whether to approve the measures.

Correspondents say the increased sway of Euro-sceptics in Finland's parliament could hold up any further bail-out deals.

As the biggest party, the NCP is tipped to lead the next government with former Finance Minister Jyrki Katainen likely to become prime minister of whatever coalition emerges, replacing Mari Kiviniemi of the Centre Party. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13107620

But does it matter? Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain are all dependent upon Crude Oil imports - and they cannot afford to service their debt AND pay for crude, bailouts or not.

MEP and UKIP leader Nigel Farage on Wednesday delivered another major tirade against EU President Herman van Rompuy and, along the way, severely insulted Belgium and Greece during a plenary debate in the European Parliament. Farage said Van Rompuy has the "charisma of a damp rag" and the appearance of a "low-grade bank clark."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY

All these quotes and links are British related media sources.It has been well documentation that Britain was from the beginning anti Euro and preferred not to be part.We find them still unwilling to contribute to the unity of Europe.Yet we find them raise hell when it has negative effect on England.Much of British media is based on that rhetoric and ignored.

Greece..and you might as well include some other Southern based nations:
-There is also a lot of anger towards the Greeks in the other EU countries: for some years Greece seems to have covered up its bad economic performance by officially presenting better economic figures than was the case. The promise of the Greek government to reduce Greece’s budget deficit from 12.7% of GDP in 2009 to 2.8% in 2012, is being met with scepticism. Many doubt whether the government in Athens will be strong enough to resist the domestic pressure from the powerful trade unions against the radical deficit-cutting efforts which are needed, while others doubt that the Greeks will refrain from manipulating the economic data again.

Unwillingness to help the Greeks is huge within a eurozone currently facing an unemployment rate of 10% of the workforce, the highest figure since the single currency was introduced eleven years ago. Under EU rules, however, all the 27 member states of the EU, not just the 16 member states of the eurozone, are obliged to help the Greeks if the EU decides to bail them out. Article 122 of the EU Treaty, which went into force last December, states: “Where a member state is in difficulties or is seriously threatened with severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences beyond its control, the council of ministers, on a proposal from the European Commission, may grant, under certain conditions, Union financial assistance.”

With Greece facing bankruptcy, the fears about Greece’s financial situation has led to a drop in value for the euro. Last week, the finance ministers of Germany and the Netherlands – the two euro zone countries which in pre-euro days had the strongest currencies in the EU: the German mark and the Dutch guilder – announced that they will not help Greece solve its problems. Again this might as well relate for most of the Mediterranean sea location.

The problems of the euro affect the entire world. The EU currency was not introduced because of economic considerations, but because the European Union is pretending to be a genuine state and states are expected to have single national currencies. Hoping to become a powerful political force in its own right, the EU adopted the euro as the common currency of some 327 million Europeans, so that the currency’s economic power would prefigure the political power to be. The eurozone represents the second largest economy in the world. During the past decade, the euro became the second largest reserve currency after the U.S. dollar.So I'm not denying that a lot is riding on how Europe will proceed in the next years and how much of the Euro zone will remain.
Oil crises in Europe relates to a global oil crises,not only Europe will be effected by it but the USA as well.
the answer to oil alternative is to be found in several other energy sources like solar energy, hydrogen storage, coal, carbon dioxide capture, synthetic fuels, the controversial ethanol and - last but high in priority list - nuclear power. If timely measures are not taken to defuse the oil crisis, the entire world will face increasing ideological pressures from Arab/Islamic oil-producing nations.
Again as I said before the time of individual politics are coming soon to a end and a new dawn of global politics be on the rising.

A bit on that, neo-Nazi party's like these Golden Dawn in Greece,it 's linked to Greece domestic problem how it deals with it's economics and it's seen as a Greek problem to resolve.And even though these neo- right wing groups pop up through out Europe it's again considered a domestic problem that needs to be dealt with by local agencies.
Europe as a whole condemns these groups and would not see a second rise of an neo nazi chapter in it's history.Strongest of all is still Germany who is would do everything they can to see it's own dark history become reality.

"Yes, Rattner did write that “elderly Americans are not entitled to every conceivable medical procedure or pharmaceutical.” And yes, he also stated that families that try every available treatment option to extend or improve the life of their elderly relatives are “an enormous societal cost that few other nations have been willing to bear.”

And Europe cannot bear that cost, nor can America. The tremendous strides that have been made in medical advancements have brought increases in longevity without the same advancements in quality of life. To be born is to die.

Economic decisions are a part of everyday life and a necessary requirement on a finite Planet with finite resources. Death is part of life, and the old going to the grave is a natural part of life.

"Death panels" will be necessary. You can call them by whatever name you want, but those decisions will need to be made. I suggest that Euthanasia be legalized and that centers, perhaps similiar to that portrayed in Soylent Green be opened.

The Planet is now at 7 billion people, all struggling for a piece of the pie. We find ourselves at post-peak oil, post peak capital, and straining the limits of resources and eco-systems. It is no longer a question that people will die for a lack of medical care due to any combination of the above - it's whether it will be managed or not.

Those who experience,tell the true tales and these are just quotes of American expats:
-

I hope nobody takes that as an insult. It's just that I still want the American Dream, but it's so hard to stay in the middle class there, anymore, compared with many other places of the world. It is no longer the land of opportunity, and that is a documented fact.
Actually to be more specific, it was the American health care system that was so frustrating for me. It was the difficult access to health care, if you want to know the one biggest reason I don't want to move back. Not unless things get better.
-I am living in Sweden and love it here.

Everything you hear about socialized medicine is true, except the lines and waiting. very fine care, I usually see a doctor the day I call for an appointment, if not, the day after. I will not be spending more than 500usd for out of pocket expenses in any 12 month period.
And is is soooo much fun watch American Politics from a distance.

Just two of many examples of Americans living and woking overseas....and that is the real reality.
Not the stories of some British back alley tabloid news.

Oh I get it..the Mayan calendar doomsday prophecy,only a few weeks away,this all relates back to your maniac writings about global disasters all because of oil.
And what you think will God come to the rescue?..Only a few weeks back the pope told the world not to worry all will be fine,the world will not burn and no one will die because of it.

@Craig
- I totally agree that OPEC is enjoying and abusing it's monopoly.
To drill for more oil round the USA might be more cheaper but there are alternative method's to that.