Of course the alternative would be to not meet with these folks, not listen to what they want and instead, do what you want: Tax and regulate the crap out of them so the public sector can remain isolated from the effects of a lousy economy and promote your Utopian social agenda.

What do you consider 'regulating the crap'? Providing a safe work environment for your workers? Not dumping your toxic waste in the dumpster? The tax rate for businesses was the same as for individuals last time I checked.

Randy,

Here's a couple past examples for you I'm familiar with:

A) Grind the top 3 inches of concrete off of the factory floor in the building you just bought because the previous occupant used cutting oils in their production facility. (Quad Graphics - old K&T facility)

B) Even though there's no evidence of groundwater contamination (or even a remote possibility of it), you must replace your underground fuel storage tanks because they don't meet the new code (despite never leaking and never having caused a problem). Or you can just fill them with sand and stop selling gas. (Numerous mom and pop gas stations).

Want me to go on? I can.

What do you think's going to happen to borderline small businesses when the green options suddenly become mandates?

We've had recent attempts to mandate paid sick leave.

We've had a Common Council in Milwaukee decide that certain types of jobs don't meet their requirements, causing one of the fastest growing companies in the area to reluctantly expand its plant in New Berlin versus relocate to "the Valley" (despite the fact that many of its seasonal workers come from Milwaukee).

That's the kind of stuff your side, the left, considers good policy Randy. One way to reduce unsafe work environments is to virtually eliminate a whole class of business, or do your best to keep businesses out of the area.

@Bob McBride...North America is awash with like examples of unregulated industrial abuses. Two hundred years of industrial production have caused the mess we are now facing. We, as a society, have known for almost four decades that our environment has been poisoned and the companies who did it have just walked away leaving we the taxpayers to pay for the cleanup.

To back away from regulations now that will stop further contamination and abuses because some people think that it will make it easier to create jobs is just kicking the problem further down the road, leaving it for future generations to deal with. The right screams and hollers that the left is just pushing the national debt further down the road for future generations to deal with; aren't you and Scooter advocating the same about protective regulations and the negative impact on the environment?

Industrialized Europeans have already turned the corner and are cleaning up the abuses of their own past industrial abuses. Are we less capable of doing the same? They have created whole new industries to address environmental issues. Proof of success is the coveted ISO 11100 series of regulations.

Bob McBride, are there actually "mom and pop" gas stations anymore? Please provide a couple examples.

Lyle,

I don't know that I'd be pointing to Europe at this point as an example of how economies have benefited in any way by increasing regulations.

The examples I cited are of situations where either a regulation applied in shotgun fashion effectively killed one segment of a market, or an assumption was made by a representative of a regulatory body about what "might" happen and, as a result, a project costing close to $100K ensued.

If I dig back, I could probably cite similar instances. I'm also, by relation, close enough to some folks who work in the enforcement arena in one particular field to say fairly confidently that you have crusaders who will pretty much turn a deaf ear to any logical argument against enforcement, because they have an agenda of their own.

Anything that, at this point in time, puts Wisconsin at a competitive disadvantage in the market for startups in or expansions into this state will only hurt us. Increasingly strict regulations and tax hikes fall into that category.

Now, you can certainly impose tougher regulations and more taxes and turn us into a ecological paradise if you so choose. You better hope people are willing to travel here from all parts of the nation for vacations, because you will have pretty much shoved out any industry but tourism. Unless you're suffering from a severe case of homer-ism, you know full well that we've already got some inherent "defects" here that keep us from being a homesteading destination.

Jim Bob I don't really know if there are anymore, or not. The period of time I was referring to was the mid-90s. That's when this program of targeting storage tanks was in full swing. I personally know of several that either gave up selling gas and attempted to get by as a convenience store or garage only, or just shut down altogether because the cost of continuing to pump or remain in business (i.e., replace the tanks) was prohibitive.

@Bob McBride -- One of my two cases for which I did jury duty back in the early 80s was a L.U.S.T. -- leaking underground storage tank. In this case, it was one of the fuel tanks that belonged to a municipality that sprung a leak and contaminated the wells of several nearby homeowners. They were inconvenienced for months, had to go on municipal water, and lost money in the sale of the home in one instance. The weld was faulty.

Turns out your comment was about the early 90s, but I noticed a 'mom and pop' gas station near me replacing the tanks recently. Since those tanks are about an eighth of a mile from my well, I'm all for making sure they're secure.

About the cutting oil -- what kind of cutting oil was it and what are the health implications of working in that environment? Would the company rather deal with it now or agree to handle health claims years down the road?

About the paid sick leave -- would you like fries and flu germs with that burger? If it costs them a day's pay, people will come to work sick and share it with everyone. In fact, there may be pressure from the boss to come to work sick as long as the resulting employee illnesses don't cost him anything.

And I don't know -- what was this New Berlin business that wasn't welcome in the Valley? Bad policy is relative -- bad for whom?

Jim - Wittlins on Appleton Ave.

Randy,

In the case where tanks are actually leaking, then certainly it makes sense to replace them. Having a law in place that mandates that all stations having tanks of certain nature replace them because it's a possibility that they might leak and then setting a date by which it must be done placed undo burden on small "mom and pop" operations. That what was happening back in the 90s - the time I was referring to. What your "mom and pop" location is doing at this point in time really has no bearing on that.

I have no idea what kind of cutting oil it was, nor, I'm sure, did the occupant of the building at that time. If you're curious, find somebody who worked at K&T back when that was in operation (a good number of years before Quad moved in) and ask them what they used. My understanding was that it wasn't a health issue, rather a safety issue regarding slippage of fork trucks. Quad was intent on having the floor cleaned, OSHA or whoever it was decided that wasn't good enough and insisted that the floor had to be replaced. They couldn't raise the height of the floor, so they had to cut it down to 3" and build it up to the original height again. I saw the areas involved. You would be hard pressed to believe the floor couldn't be cleaned.

Paid sick leave should be up to the employer, not mandated by a municipality. You want to further drive business out of Milwaukee County to Waukesha or Washington Counties, go with that. (cont'd)

As for the company I spoke of in New Berlin that wanted to move to Milwaukee and draws most of it's seasonal workers from the area, it was a fairly big story. If you're not aware of it, then you obviously don't pay much attention to this type of stuff, so I'm not surprised at your particular lack of grasp of the issues involved.

They're a major online retailer. Do some work and see if you can figure it out for yourself.

Your job loss examples all happened while Doyle was spending time in Spain trying to get a high speed train built overseas. Short term memory?

John: Have you seen or read this book related to the Documentary: It's the Republican playbook and Still Ongoing in today's politics; I just saw one of economists [Allan Meltzer] in the book on C-Span3: http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/naomi-kleins-alternative-history-of-present-day-capitalism/

Yes, because consolidating a business increases the profits in the short term. But the former Midwest was known for its good service, and I don't think that will be the case anymore. They'll lose business, which will in turn trigger more layoffs, and of course they'll blame their greedy workers. And so it goes . . .

@Rick -- why do you suppose knocking a piece of concrete off a bridge over a navigable waterway might be a bad idea? If you're the guy on the boat who might either be brained from above or holed from below, you might understand. If you run into the breakwater, it's your own problem. (And really -- termination? That sounds a little harsh.)

I feel sympathy for people who can't build within sight of the water, but on a trip to the Dells several decades ago, I was grateful for it. Portions of the Lower Dells are still scenic, even though I know there's a lot of expensive real estate back in there. The river is something that belongs to us all. Should someone with the big bucks be allowed to build a twelve story hotel on it and spoil it for the rest of us?

I always roll my eyes at those libertarians who complain about big government and then live in a place that regulates the height of a fence and the color of your siding, but hey -- who expects consistency?

What happens when they don't lay off workers to keep your "tax cuts", go out of business because overhead it too high and have to lay everyone off?

@Steve - Businesses always have to make decisions based on economic realities. If hiring or keeping an employee will bring in more money than the cost of employing that employee, a rational employer with keep or hire the employee, whatever the tax rate. If hiring or keeping an employee will not bring in more money than the cost of employing that employee, then a rational employer will not keep or hire that employee, again regardless of the tax rate. The one time when tax rates might make a difference to this analysis is if the tax rate nears 100%. Since tax rates currently are at historic post-war lows, that exception has no application.

Since taxes are only paid on profits, and since the costs of the employee are fully deductible, my proposal could not possibly have the effect you suggest on a rational employer. A rational employer will take the action necessary to remain profitable, even if that means a higher marginal tax rate.

Mr. Henak - Every corporate dollar spent on taxes is less dollars corporations will spend on new hires or capital investments. That's math!!! Something Obama doesn't seem to get.

@Brian Dey...Simply not true. taxes are paid on profit. Businesses are only concerned about meeting demand and will not hire unless they can't meet demand. More demand, more production; more production and sales, the more profits. It is all realitive. Nice spin though.

Try this again.

Actually Brian, that's not true. Reread my reply above. It is simple economics (and math), as I noted earlier. Businesses hire employees or make capital improvements because they expect the new hire or improvement to create more in return than they cost. Businesses do not hire people or make capital improvements just because they have the money to do so. If they did, the unemployment rate would be under 5% now since so many businesses are flush with cash and have the benefit of the lowest tax burden in more than 50 years.

General tax cuts do not create jobs; they increase profits, nothing more.

For the same reasons, modest tax increases on employers do not change the calculus of whether to hire new employees or make capital improvements. Jobs are created only when demand for the employer's products or services exceeds its ability to provide them with its current workforce. Taxes come out of profits, i.e., the money left over after the cost of overhead, employees and capital improvements, all of which are deductible. If it makes sense to hire new employees at a 28% tax rate, it still makes sense to do so at a 34% tax rate, or even 38% or 40%. Anyone who has ever hired an employee or made capital improvements would tell you that if they were being honest.

Time to study some economics my friend. This is the exact opposite of capitalism which is what we have in America. You are seeking socialism and this will simply make it worse for everyone. We'll slowly keep losing our liberties and the ability to better our lives through our own drive and initiative. Everytime the government intervenes in the market with a stimulus or subsidy, it is picking the winners and losers rather than letting competition find the best use of or money. Why would you want to give even more money to a government that has proven itself to be terribly inneficient and corrupt? God Bless America!

Mr. Henak- As someone who owns a business and has had experience in hiring in the public and private sector; adding additional tax does influence whether capital improvements are made and if additional employees will be added. Here is why.

The object of any company is profit. When the economy is doen, the object becomes maintaining as much profit as possible; i.e. my business is not projecting growth next year so we are trying to maintain the same profit level as this year. That was the case the prior year where we projected zero growth. However, we did experience growth at about 1.5%. The additional profit could have been used for marginal capital improvements (a necessary improvement, but not immediate need). The same could be said for marginal hiring ( an additional seasonal employee that could be used that would still maintain the zero growth projection).

If the government steps in and says they are going to raise capital gains, marginal needs are discarded and then what you have stated above, hiring and purchases becomes the ONLY time based on immediate needs are projected growth.

It is those marginal hires that are not taking place because of the unknowns in Washington; i.e. Obamacare, tax rates, and write-offs. At least from the industry that I'm in, yes that means that we will sit on our money until we know for sure what is going to happen and not make marinal purchases until they become an absolute necessity and same is true for new hires.

Mr. Dey,

I also own my own business and am an employer. You speak of "marginal employees," which I assume means that you are uncertain whether hiring that additional worker will bring in more than he or she costs. Contrary to your suggestion, however, the uncertainty with that has nothing to do with tax rates. Reducing your tax rate would do nothing to make an unprofitable employee profitable, so a rational employer still would not hire that employee even if the tax rate were zero.

I agree that uncertainty can influence whether to hire new employees. However, the health care reforms are not uncertainties. You may not like it and you may hope that it goes away, but it is here now and most likely will continue, so you have certainty with that. The one uncertainty is if the Republicans succeed in repealing all or part of it with the resulting increase in health care costs for all of us.

The fact is that, as employers and as human beings, we never can know for sure what is going to happen in the next year or even in the next few days. We have to make our decisions on the best information available rather than wait for clarity that will never come. Those of us who guess correctly will succeed and those who do not will either fail or will not be as successful. Those of us who sit on our hands and do nothing necessarily will fail and, as we can see from the current economic environment, take the rest of the economy down with us.

@Raider Fan - Labels do not mean a thing. The fact is that no country in the world currently has a purely capitalistic system and the U.S. hasn't had one since the Robber Baron era of the 1800's. Rather, we have what is basically a capitalist system while recognizing that government regulation is necessary to prevent the excesses and damage caused by pure capitalism. This is not, as you suggest, socialism. Even Adam Smith, one of the early proponents of capitalism, recognized the need for such regulation. After all, while some governments no doubt are inept and corrupt, the same can be said of corporations and other businesses. And while we have a vote in our own government, we have no vote in how Enron or Bernie Madoff run their businesses.

The issue today is not whether there should be government regulation but how much regulation and which regulations provide the optimum balance.

Robert R. Henak - "Those of us who guess correctly will succeed and those who do not will either fail or will not be as successful."

Wow! So success is only possible to those who guess correctly - everything else be damned in your world! Might as well become a professional gambler. Hmmm… better start watching all those old Kenny Rogers movies again!

But why should anyone be subjected to a higher tax rate when that money is only going to be spent on things like Solyndra or the $16 muffin? The current concern most of us have with paying taxes right now is that the government hasn't efficiently and effectively utilized the money we’ve already given it. And yet, now you say the government wants and deserves more??? HA!!!

I thought Clinton promised to clean things up when we found out that they were spending $500 on a hammer and $1,500 for a toilet seat. But alas, that kind of crap is still going on today. At least Clinton pretended to be outraged by the wasteful spending. I've yet to hear a single word about it from Obama. If $.5B is apparently just pocket change for Obama, then why doesn't he offer to pay back the taxpayers for Solyndra himself? His administration even allowed their loan to be modified so that we the taxpayers come last in line for anything that may be left over post liquidation!!! And yet, despite this ‘screw the taxpayer’ attitude from the current Democratic administration, you’re OK with giving him even more of your money to throw away.

Personally, I’d rather be given the option of actually flushing my money down the toilet instead of giving it to Obama so he can do it for me. But apparently, you’re A-OK with this. Tell you what, you can pay more taxes if it makes you feel good. But until the government starts showing a little accountability with our money, I personally don’t think anyone should be forced to.

Walker has the right idea – how many school districts in WI have lowered property taxes since his reforms became effective? And what’s this I’ve been hearing about the school districts paying less for the same level of health insurance because they are no longer obligated to buy it from the rip-off public sector union WEAC? Wow, sounds like someone is finally starting to show some accountability for how the public tax dollars are spent and trying to maximize value for the tax payer. And yet, you seem to think that Walker is doing the wrong thing here.

Come on, all I've heard the Democrats doing lately is playing class warfare. Yeah, that sure makes me want to pay more taxes, as it really instills the confidence in me that the tax money will be put to good use. REALLY??? Wake up!!!!

@James R Hoffa...I get the biggest kick out of you and your simplistic arguments against further funding of stimulus for economy recovery. If Obama and Congress would have made the initial stimulus bill big enough the first time we wouldn't have to come up with a second stimulus bill. In addition, Congressional Republicans need to stop being obstructionistic and give the administration the latitude to spend us out of this economic downturn. That includes you and I opening our wallets and stepping up to pay higher taxes for the good of the country.

Scooter hasn't got a clue on how to create jobs. All he can do is posture and now blame Washington for not growing jobs in Wisconsin and claim that we don't have the right job skills to fill Wisconsin jobs.

Lyle - The stimulus wasn't big enough? You are one crazy fool. Tell you what. Why don't you go to your bank on Monday and tell them that you need to borrow more money because you can't afford to pay your bills. I'll save you the trip because they will tell you that you are one crazy fool.

@Brian Dey...Crazy I may be, a fool I may be; but Keynesian Economics calls for stimulating the economy through stimulus infusions of large enough revenue to shore up consumption, which in turn supports employment and employment growth. Paul Kruger agrees with my position. You must keep money flowing and not become an economic isolationist. Thomas Friedman is also a proponent if we wish to continue in the global environment. Without additional stimulus the value of goods and services will begin to collapse, creating conditions worse than during the Great Depression.

We have to stop using the corporiste model for government. Government is different than either your personal economy or the business economy. Only the government has the power and capability to pull us out of this morass. Government complicit with big business and the wealthy have created this situation.

Lyle- And Keynesian economics is working sooo well now isn't it. Let's see; poverty at an all time high, housing market in the tank, unemployment nearly twice as high after the stimulus, zero job creation and that $548 million we wasted on Solynara that laid off 1100 and went bankrupt along with our money. That is working real well now isn't it. The private sector, namely small business, will be the driving force to economic recovery and it always has been. We need Obama to get out of the way so we can fix this economy. Propping up his buddies businesses at our expense is not the answer.

@Brian Dey...Of course the Keynesian economics is not working, the Republicans have hobbled it. Although long term recovery will depend on small business, but small business will not survive without consumers having money to spend. Money is not coming into the economy through the efforts of the wealthy or big business, that's all going overseas. The record profits are being reinvested offshore creating 2.9 million jobs while the US has lost 2.5 million jobs since 2008, beginning on Bush's watch and the Bush economic collapse. By the time Obama took office we had already shed over a million jobs. In short, you can't start a fire without fuel or keep it going once its started.

Lyle- You need to stop with the old playbook of it's Bush's fault. Even Biden says that the Dems and obama own this economy. And of course, the small business person isn't investing in jobs here or equipment when you have a President that wants to raise their taxes and punish their success. How many trillions of dollars do you want for the next stimulus. And giving payroll tax breaks from Social Security is a real good idea when SS is already under funded. Obama doesn't have a clue because he had no real experience in anything, but you all felt good about electing him because of the color of his skin, which flies in the face of what Dr. Martin Luther King died for. I am convinced that the only way we get out of this mess is by getting rid of Obama. Until then, small business owners will hod tight to what they earned.

@Brian Dey...The total estimates that I have seen that is needed is $2.5 trillion. We've already had a $850 billion stimulus, so another $1.75 trillion. We have to increase revenues, meaning the rich are going to pay for once.

Social Security is not broke and is solid until 2017 when it will have to be tweaked.

In any case, holding Obama to a standard that you don't hold Walker to is a bit hypocritical. Scooter is a professional politician who has never owned a business or been in a business management position.

Actually Brian, according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) (i.e., the stimulus), raised real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product by between 0.8 percent and 2.5 percent, Lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.5 percentage points and 1.6 percentage points, Increased the number of people employed by between 1.0 million and 2.9 million, and Increased the number of full-time-equivalent (FTE) jobs by 1.4 million to 4.0 million compared with what would have occurred otherwise over the second quarter of 2011. These results are consistent with the past year.

So yes, although it has not totally succeeded, Keynsian economics is doing quite well. Interesting note, the CBO also has determined that the kind of policies you are promoting would have a significant NEGATIVE impact on the current economy, while President Obama's proposals would benefit the economy both in the short term and the long term.

@ Brian Dey. - I also would note, as I did previously, that your suggestion that small business is refusing to expand because of some fear that the historically low current tax rates will increase marginally makes no sense as a matter of basic economics. Unless the tax rate is in the range of 75% or more, an employer acts irrationally by failing to hire a new employee who would add revenue in excess of cost.

Lyle and Brian: There is an easy solution to both securing Social Security while helping create jobs. Remove the regressive cap on the amount of income subject to Social Security tax while simultaneously reducing the tax rate for both employees AND EMPLOYERS. Reducing the tax rates reduces the cost of creating jobs for working class and middle class employees. Reducing the tax rates on employees helps stimulate the economy. And removing the cap on income subject to the tax provides a test of the GOP's desired "flat tax," abolishes one of the most regressive tax provisions, and helps to guarantee future social security payments, thus providing more confidence in the economy and the future.

@robert R. Henak...I want to add to an example to your agrument. Japan took a very conservative approach to their recovery and it took better than a decade and they have still not fully recovered.

@Robert R. Henak... Where did you get that: ' Unless the tax rate is in the range of 75% or more, an employer acts irrationally by failing to hire a new employee who would add revenue in excess of cost'. I previously read/undestood this number to be in the 50%+/- range.

Lyle Ruble -

Wow, for a man apparently so self-statedly versed in theory, I find it quite hysterical that you've apparently never heard of Occam's Razor, as is evident from your brash characterization and dismissal of my arguments as being “simplistic.” I don’t think I’ll ever quite comprehend the accepted hypocrisy from your side. You know, I was just as upset as your side was over the whole AIG flamboyant bonuses and junkets post government bailout. And I’m just as upset when the government does exactly the same kind of crap with our tax dollars. Yet, for some reason or another – your side apparently isn’t. Add to that, you support a President who gave a speech calling for “made in the U.S.A.,” when just a few months prior to that speech, he was out ordering motorcade busses made in Canada. In fact, it was during this very same speech during which your man was calling for “made in the U.S.A” as well as increased tax hikes on the rich and yet had Jeffrey Immelt symbolically in his box sitting next to the first lady!!!! Need I remind that G.E. paid no federal taxes and recently announced moving their aero-space and med-tech divisions to China.

You and Obama are calling for shared sacrifice from the rich without first disclosing the facts that 49% of all Americans don’t pay any federal taxes and of those that do, the wealthiest 1% already proportionally contribute the most. And Warren Buffet is a complete joke – here’s a man who is asking to be taxed more while all-the-while failing to disclose the fact that he’s disputing about $1B in back taxes that he already owes and isn’t willing to pay. And yet somehow, your side still sees fit to make him your poster boy – it just astonishes me. Not to mention Obama’s willingness to sacrifice himself – how many $10’s of millions of tax dollars did we spent on Michelle’s vacations this year alone already? Could you help refresh my memory here. This guy promised that he would work tirelessly until things were better. And yet, the only time I actually saw him ever working tirelessly was when he was pushing his own agenda through. How many months was he on vacation and/or campaigning this year?

And despite all of this, you still want me to accept the need to raise taxes so this man can do more of the same of what he already tried and laughing dismissed after the fact by saying “shovel ready was not as shovel as we expected.” YOU GOT TO BE FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!! I’m getting sick of this ‘do as I say but not as I do’ position that is currently being championed by your side and the DNC.

And if Obamacare is so great, then why did they need to hand out any waivers at all, yet alone only crony cherry-picked waivers? As a self-insured American who’s always paid my own medical bills, I called Washington and requested a waiver from the individual mandate. Guess what – they told me I couldn’t get one and if I didn’t buy a private health insurance policy that my government would be issuing me a fine. And yet labor unions, restaurants in Pelosi’s district, and others apparently had no problems getting one. Explain to me how this is right or at all American!!!

The Democratic Party and its agenda have lost all credibility and no one trusts Obama anymore. He’s nothing but a two-faced liar, a purveyor of crony capitalism, and has repeatedly displayed an indifference and lack of responsibility towards spending our tax dollars. And instead of fixing anything right now, he’s more interested in charging up his base and dividing the country even more by playing class warfare!!! I’m sorry, but this administration has been nothing but a joke and yet you want me to trust it with more money from my wallet. Tell you what, since you and the left seem to believe in him and in his economic policies so much, pave the way in leading by example and voluntarily pay more taxes than you owe this next year. But until you’re willing to put your own money where your mouth is, don’t expect the rest of us with common sense to follow suit any time soon.

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't get over the fact that as I'm typing about Obama's hypocrisy, a story breaks on yet another example of the Obama hypocrisy machine:

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-commander-chief-must-support-gay-troops-003517951.html

Didn't he say that he wasn't going to be the "speech police" when all those Democratic senators were saying things like "the tea party wants to see blacks hanging on a tree[?]" For some reason or another, I seem to recall that he did. And yet, now he sees fit to get involved in monitoring the speech that's occurring in the Republican Presidential Primary Debates???

Come on - either shut or put up you stupid clown, but more than anything else - STOP LYING TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS!!!!

@James R Hoffa...You are quite funny invoking "Occum's Razor" into this discussion. It is aparant that you are grasping at straws. In the first place economics is the least predictive of all the social sciences. Hence, we must rely on policy that we know that works. Keynesian economics works and in this case we haven't committed ourselves to let it work. The only way to fund such a program is through increasing revenues through taxation. Currently federal income tax provides the majority of funding and that can be changed. If we look around the globe we see other solutions. A national sales tax would be one avenue to increase revenues as well as bringing tariff equity to nations who are maintaining imbalanced import duties relative to us. China and India are placing import duties on US goods equal to 40 and 50 percent respectively to our 3 to 4 percent on imported goods from those same countries, creating huge trade imbalances. Also, the tax code needs to be overhauled and morgage interest deductions eliminated over time, inheritance taxes increased and capital gains brought up to at least 25% levels.

You cite Obamacare as failed and I don't deny that there are problems with some aspects of it. However, it was forced into this type of cobbled together law because of the extraordinary special interest pressures. The real answer is to finally accept socialized national healthcare like every other developed nation in the world.

@ Jay Sykes - You may be right. I'm going from memory here and, like many of those on this board, my memory isn't what it used to be. If you have an actual citation to your 50% figure, I could accept that. We're still way below that rate now in any event.

Lyle - I agree with you on the need to equalize the playing field in regards to trade. In fact, I believe it's the current imbalances as well as the poorly constructed and hastily entered into FTA's that ultimately got us into this whole mess to begin with. Or, at least that combined with an ignorant and arrogant consumerist population.

So I have to ask, why did/do labor unions such as the UAW support NAFTA and the newly proposed and negotiated FTA's with Korea and Columbia? Why was it a Democrat, Bill Clinton, who was responsible for giving us NAFTA??? Why in his jobs speech did Obama so openly support the new FTA’s as being good and sound economic policy??? After all, he's a "hgihly [sic] educated intelligent individual" that you believe in, right???

Koreans aren't going to be lining up to buy Chevys/Fords/Chryslers as Obama seems to think, as the Asian societies teach their children domestic product loyalty in the classroom, thus indoctrinating their people in the art of passive protectionism. After all, if Kia/Hyundai/Samsung/LG and the like were able to establish the massive foothold that they already have over here under the normal trade agreements, you'd think that GM/Ford/Chrysler would have already established a similar foothold in Korea if a real demand for our products was actually omnipresent over there. We already learned this the hard way from Japan, didn't we? The only thing the FTA's stand to do is make it easier to outsource more of our middle class supporting industrial/manufacturing jobs base just like it did with Mexico after NAFTA became effective!!! Is Obama really that STUPID???

@Brian Dey...The Republicans invented class warfare and have been waging it on the middle and lower classes for the last 40 years. Whenever someone stands up and says no more, you and your side scream class warfare.

Hitler was a REAL leader too. Just like Hitler, Scooter has mindless ideologue followers willing to do anything that he asks.

Class warfare. Oh how the Republicans and the wealthy and powerful hate that.
They have gotten too used to it being a public slaughter.

Brian, I find it worthless to even comment here anymore because whenever someone makes a real point, guys like you dig into the talking points basket and spew them out like little elephant turds all over the place. As Lyle says, the "Class Warfare" has been going on for 40 years, beating down working wages and in turn the middle class. So just continue with your cutsy talking points. One day you're going to wake up and realize you taxes have not gone down, and your wages are never going to go up and any semblence of a benefit package you once may have had has vanished, there will be fewer jobs in WI than than when Walker took office and the social safety net will be more full of holes than Wisconsin Swiss Cheese. At that time that cheese will be imported from California, or New York at best and perhaps Zimbabwe ate worst. I am not confused a bit.

Lyle:

You have repeatedly made comparisons of Scott Walker to Adolf Hitler. Comparisons of ANY U.S. elected officials to such an individual is completely reprehensible.

What is to be gained by making such comments? There is NO, and I repeat, NO elected official in the United States deserving of comparison to an evil individual that was responsible for the mass murder of millions people.

Although I generally respect (although not necessarily agree with) you well reasonsed opinions, such statements only serve to discredit your reasonableness.

And, patchreader, he's been cautioned on it numerous times. Since he repeats the comparison even after such cautions, one can only draw the conclusion that he does truly equate Walker and the Republicans with Hitler and his minions.

If he wishes to taint his credibility in this fashion, repeatedly, it's his choice.

Where's Nick, Mr. Let's Bring Civility to the Discussion, who wrapped an entire opinion piece around a similar statement by some other poster, to take Lyle to task for this?

:::crickets:::

I find it hypocritical of Lyle to school the racist blogger Patriot regarding the outrageous nature of his racist comments (deservedly so), only to make equally outrageous comments himself.

@patchreader 123...I did not call Walker Hitler, but pointed out that even the most evil of people to have lived in our known lifetime, had those who supported him even in his most evil pursuits. My point is; that Walker has been, is and will be wrong and there are those who are so committed to his ideology that they would follow him no matter what. I do not trust those who are guided by unbridled ambition and personal gain. It doesn't matter what side of the political aisle they come from. Stalin, Mussolini, Amin, Jim Jones, etc all had unquestioning followers. Tyrannical oligarchies are dangerous to democracy and the sovereignty of the individual. For someone who out of one side of there mouth speak to expanding choice and freedom; and, out of the other side of their mouth they speak to limiting freedoms, they can't be trusted. It would be wise for all of us to remain skeptical and cynical of leadership that chooses to create imbalance and social disorder.

Now you're parsing your statements. Your point is to bring awareness to the presence of supporters having blind faith. Such blind faith transcends party lines here within the U.S. Will you next compare President Obama to Joseph Stalin?

Because your arguments often include fallacy and reference academecians, you may want to review ""Reductio ad Hitlerum" per Leo Strauss's book "Natural Right and History."

Bringing in Hitler/Nazis to prove a point is known fondly as Godwin's Law. But that whole episode does provide some historical lessons from which we could all profit. As in, a LEADER can take us all right off a cliff while convincing most of us that he's just trying to show us the beautiful view.

Randy:

I'm aware of Godwin's Law, thanks.

Yes, perhaps we can all benefit by remembering and avoiding society's horrible past actions.

However, bringing Adolf Hitler into an argument relating to U.S. politics, in an effort to draw an analogy, serves no real purpose other than to inflame the argument itself.

@patchreader 123...I also am aware of Godwin's Law and "Reductio ad Hitlerum" and I suggest you re-read what I was responding too written by Brian Dey. However, I get your point and will be more careful in the future.

Brian will not tolerate any criticism of Scott Walker and is committed to Walker as a selfless public servant. I, on the other hand, view Walker as an opportunist, someone who has boundless ambition and has brought this state to unprecedented turmoil, dividing the populace to polarized extremes.

I have been sensitized to the deliberate efforts made to scape goat public sector employees by Walker and using them to motivate the conservative base to support his draconian measures. I have spent fifty years fighting social injustice and when people are demonized because of ethnicity, social status, religious belief or political beliefs, I can't sit idly by and not say something. I find Walker particularly worrisome because he is very good at telling people what they want to hear and he is pandering to the extreme right manipulating them into supporting the elimination of any political opposition. I have come to expect people who pursue power have to be monitored and held accountable. Each citizen must guard against the tyrants that exist amongst us.

"The Shock Doctrine" is still in the works. Please, please, please read this book and watch the free documentary first: http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/naomi-kleins-alternative-history-of-present-day-capitalism/
Our American dream may die without people like you reading, thinking and discussing the possiblities of this information. It's an extremely well documented and thoroughly reviewed for it's factual content even using Congressional Library resources. God Love and Save Us All.

If blogging on Patch doesn't matter at all to anyone why are you participating, Duane?

@Brain Dey...You absolutely don't hold Walker to the same standard as you do Obama. The only reason you support Walker is that he mirrors your belief system. He has no background in business or economics and basically is and has been a social conservative. From a business standpoint he is nothing more than a mindless marionette of business; from the WMC, to WRA to Koch.

I would agree with you about social security if we turn it into a full retirement program and disallow all other retirement programs. As it is now we need to remove the income cap and leave in place the benefit cap.

Capital depreciation does need to be revisited and cleaned up. Rates of depreciation need to be standardized based on euipment type and use. However, no one is going to invest in capital equipment unless it will increase production to meet higher demand and higher demand is dependent on consumption.

You obviously really don't understand the Boeing situation and the details. There is fairly clear evidence that Boeing violated the law.

If your employees decided to organize and unionize, would you oppose it? If they were successful would you choose to stay in business or close up shop?

Lyle- See, this is where you don't get it. Walker was a state legislator and leader of the largest, most populated county in the state. He had already proven he was a man of his word by holding the line on taxes in Milwaukee County. He had executive branch experience and I was pleased with his results. When he wanted to run for Governor in the '06 election, I didn't support him because he didn't have enough experience and was the County Co-Chair for Mark Green.

Now Obama has never led anything. He was a on term state legislator 9who abstained from voting on any important issue) and a term congressman. No executive experience at all. He was a lawyer (which I have little respect for anyway). He never stood for anything, only against. He was a good-looking well spoken black man who had political ties to the most liberal characters including the radical terrorist that bombed our state capital. People like yourself looked beyond his experience because you thouth electing the first black President would be the socially conscience thing to do. You looked past his obvious flaws so you could feel good about yourself. Many Republicans did the same thing and there is nothing wrong with your motives. But Obama has proven to be a colossal failure. And before you call me racist, I voted for Alan Keyes in the 2000 primary and intend to vote for Herman Cain. Not because of the color of their skin, but the context of their message and experience.

Actually Brian, there is no reason to "uncap the pay-outs."

@Brian Dey...Fortunately you lived in Racine County while Walker was County Executive. He did absolutely nothing during his tenure except to create one mess after another. What he did to Milwaukee Mental Health was criminal and he should have been held responisible. His efforts to privatise county services resultled in costing us more money. He was constantly attempting to cut side deals and he even compromised unions in the process. The deal he cut with fire fighter and police unions to gain their support in his election for governor is a clear indication to what he will do in order to win. He is clearly a self-serving opportunistic ego centric.

His tenure as a state legislator was committed to conservative ideological libertarianism. Truth in sentencing is a total failure and his constant support of conceal and carry is meaningless. He, as usual, didn't have any ideas of his own and his deep involvement with ALEC proves that.

I can't believe you are comparing Barack Obama with Walker. Our president is a hgihly educated intelligent individual. Walker on the other hand, is an under educated and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I compare Walker to Rick Perry. both seem to cut from the same clothe.

I looked at Alan Keyes and found nothing there of significance. Hermain Cain is a little more interesting, but he certainly isn't presidential material. If he was, you Republicans would still be searching for a good candidate.

@Brian Dey....Caesar has decided that what you must render is more for the privilege of enjoying the protection and opportunities that the empire provides.

I find it funny that you would lecture me to get a job and work long hours for my money and invest in my future. A portion of my money is your money and the nation's. I agree through social contracts to support those who can't support themselves. My progeny will earn their way just as I have and will start out with nothing except their G-d given abilities. Your idea of being taxed again at death is comical. You're dead and what you are talking about is taxing your survivors.

Your self-righteous indignation is interesting and a bit misplaced. You really show a lack of understanding about the warp and werf of society and community. I would advise you to broaden your view and not just focus on how the world impacts Brian Dey.

Lyle- And supporting others is a choice and that is what charity is all about. It is not the governments role to distribute wealth. Communist Russia (the Soviet Union) did that. It is not the governments role to provide lifetime care to anyone, or to level the playing field. If you want to provide for others in only the fashion that government determines, that is your choice. I would rather donate to charitable organizations that are held accountable for the charity they give. That is my choice. As far as what is happening with Boeing, you don't get it and have not read enough about it. Nothing is happening to the Seattle unionized plant. No one is getting laid off and the plant is set to expand. However, they would like an east cost facility to build the new 787. The expense of builing the plant in Washington is prohibitive to Boeing. 1,000 new jobs are being put on hold because of Obama's beholdings to the unions. That is the ONLY reason this is being held up. Unions should not have special protection from government. If anything, government should remain neutral an purely an arbitrator of law. This is why so many of us in the business world are fed up with unions and democrats. Because you guys think that unions are a protected class, like race and gender. Also, interesting to see how mature you are that you can't even type the word GOD. It's G-O-D, not g-d.

@Brian Dey...All I have to say about charity is that if we could take care of those in need by charity alone I would fully support that. However, since charitable giving has never been sufficient to meet the needs, then the only answer is to meet the needs through taxation.

Now in reference to the Boeing situation, it will be finally determined if Boeing violated the "run away shop" law. Boeing CEOs repeated made public statements about punishing the AMI for past legal actions. I have researched this in depth and it is you who is misinformed.

Now with regards to my not typing out G-d is a cultural religious tradition. Those of us who are Jewish often do not spell it out or use it whimsically.

Lyle,

Could you please supply links to statements by Boeing CEOs where they reference punishing AMI for past actions?

Thanks.

@James R Hoffa...Did I push one of your buttons? What makes you so anti-intellectual? I can quote one Horatio Alger story after another. The ones you are quoting are all business successes. That doesn't necessarily translate to governance ability. I am not overly impressed with Ivy League Schools and I hold the Ivy League Business Schools responsible for the majority of the economic mess we're in. As far as I a concerned an MBA and $5.00 dollars will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.

People like you haven't given Obama a fighting chance. I would like to see how well you would do if you walked into the disaster that he did. Your criticism began even before he took office and has grown in intensity.

Incorrect Lyle. I wanted to believe in Obama. I gave him a chance. And what did he do early on - he gave us crap like Obamacare instead of employing legislation to repair the economy! I thought he campaigned for the job by saying that he would work tirelessly to get the economy better above all else. Did I miss something here? How does Obamacare help get the economy going? Survey after survey of small business says that uncertainty over Obamacare is the prime reason why they aren't expanding or hiring new employees right now! And let's not forget the way in which our great Democratic Congress and airhead Pelosi passed it - "we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what's in it." This is the kind of "hgihly [sic] educated intelligent individual" that you entrust the leadership of government to? Yeah, that's a great rational - much better than reading the damn thing first before voting on it, right? How convenient that restaurants in her district managed to get a waiver from this apparently great piece of legislation, but I can't. How is this not criminal or unAmerican again?

I gave him a chance and this is what resulted. What more can I honestly say?

Look at how much Walker managed to do of what he said he would do in the relatively short period of time he's headed Wisconsin government though. Big difference from Obama.

BTW - the people I referenced are not just business successes - they are also REAL LEADERS!!! How else do you think they became successful?

On the other hand, you're the one who's not giving Walker very much of chance, are you??? He's not even through his first year yet, need I remind you. And yet, nothing but criticisms from you. Why not give the man a chance???

Why is it that it is so easy to call out your hypocrisies on this board? I guess according to you being a hypocrite is requisite to being a “hgihly [sic] educated intelligent individual,” just like your boy Obama. When he’s a Senator, it’s apparently unAmerican to vote to raise the debt ceiling. But when he’s the President, it’s unAmerican to not vote to raise the debt ceiling. WOW. Honestly, how do you keep Obama’s ideologies straight and how do you justify the rationales he employs after constantly flip-flopping on practically everything he says??? It must be a full time job for you :-)

Obama was attempting to cement his legacy with pushing through his health care bill. Even his own former advisor Rahm Emanuel tried to dissuade Obama from pushing it through as an anitial agenda item, instead wanting him to instead focus on the economy.

He promised transparency (remember his CSPAN promise?), only to renege and bless the legislature with utilizing back room deals to create it. And the result? No public option because of the influence of the health insurance lobbies.

patchreader 123 - You got it exactly right my friend, and with a double dose of Obama hypocrisy to boot!!!

BTW - Did you see his most recent hypocrisy in starting to monitor the speech occurring at the Republican Presidential Primary Debates, despite previously saying that he wasn't going to be the 'speech police' in response to Democrats saying things like "the tea party wants to see blacks hanging on a tree[,]" even though he was the one who initially called for a tone down in the political rhetoric. I mean come on man, this guy, just like his number two Biden, is the gift that just keeps on giving!!! And despite being a "hgihly [sic] educated intelligent individual[,]" as Lyle would have us all believe, Obama is just so vain, indifferent, naïve, or simply stupid to even realize this or get it. And yet Lyle still thinks of him as being bright enough to be the leader of our country - I just can't get over it!!!

I think we should call Websters and have them modify the definition of 'hypocrisy' to include a photo reference of Obama in the next edition! Honestly, not even Carter or George W. were as hypocritical as Obama is turning out to be!

Lyle - Interesting position on Ivy League schools. Especially when you stop to consider that a majority of them have economic professors, such a Paul Krugman at Princeton, teaching and preaching your highly coveted and praised Keynesian theory. So I guess in your world, those who are graduating from these institutions obviously aren't employing that which they are being taught in school, otherwise you'd have a much higher opinion of these institutions, yes? Or, perhaps this theory is just as flawed as some of your other theories.

@Brian Dey...How about Walker's alignment with WMC, WRA, etc. He's not his own man. As far as Obama being a buffoon, that's a matter of perspective and opinion.

Brian, the constitution has been interpreted to include the concept of social welfare. I think I understand the constitution and have studied the period extensively. It is a document that reflects the "Age of Enlightenment and Reason" and the beliefs of those who drafted it. Thankfully it was not written in such a way to restrict change and has allowed for a certain flexibility. Unlike Walker who is a scholar of nothing, Obama is a consitutional scholar and taught constituional law.

The Tea Party is a short lived anomally. They represent the extreme of the extreme and anyone with the least bit of intelligence reject them out of hand.

Brian, for your information, Boeing is already in China building component and sub assemblies. Only problem is that the quality hasn't been very good and required a great deal of rework. AirBus is assembling aircraft in China.

I don't know about your theological studies, but don't misinterpret respect of Elohem with how something is spelled. Your idea of G-d's grace is not a concept that we share and it is directly traceable to Martin Luther and Jon Calvin. It is the basis for the ideas of predestination within Christianity and the reason for not doing good works.

@Brian Dey...Obama is not anti-Israel. He supports Israel but thinks that Israel must come forward and bargain in good faith. I am not a supporter of the settlements in Israel or the ultra nationalists committed to a Greater Israel including construction of the "third temple". The worse thing for Israel is the existence of Mount Moriah. I wished fundamentalist Christians would stay out of Israeli politics.

@James R Hoffa...I still find your screen name a bit disturbing; given that Jimmy Hoffa was one of the most corrupt labor leaders in the 20th century. That being aside, Walker deserves to be held accountable. In my estimation he is a politician's politician and an uncompromising ideologue. What he has engineered and done to the state in the last 10 months will take decades to rectify.

Solyndra is an abomination, no matter who is responsible. It has crossed over two administrations and it sounds as if a number of people should be held accountable.

I too am opposed to NAFTA and other FTA. It has only helped corporations to rape and pillage American workers, medium and small businesses. I have to admit I never voted for Bubba Clinton.

Also, there's no question that Obama's administration, of which he is the head and therefore defacto responsible for that which occurs on his watch, is fully responsible for Solyndra. The only thing G.W. Bush (who I'm also not a fan of) had to do with Solyndra was to review their request for the loan guarantee of which his people came back and said it needed more due diligence review before an intelligent conclusion could be reached.

It was your "hgihly [sic] educated intelligent individual" who allowed his people to initially give it the green light (even after his own people said it "wasn't ready for prime time" and would probably "go bankrupt in September of 2011") and then illegally modify the loan after-the-fact to screw over the taxpayers. This all occurred on Obama's watch and documentation proves and supports all of this.

So let's be completely honest here, shall we? If your man had any kind of integrity, he would just fess up and admit his errors, despite whoever it actually was within his administration, the same way Hoffa did. Instead, he doesn't say a word about it, which makes it appear as if he is indifferent about how taxpayer’s dollars are wasted and supports the screwing over of taxpayers via the loan modification. And yet, your OK with this attitude and still support him. WHY???

Hoffa was a great LEADER and never pretended to be anything that he wasn't. He openly admitted this time and again. Only the Kennedy's and the like saw him as corrupt. He truly was the last great labor leader of the modern era. And all the Vegas loans were legit!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9403E3D7143FF936A25752C1A9629C8B63&pagewanted=all

This is what happens when you give ivy league MBA's control of your money. Personally, I'll take Hoffa and the mob over Wall Street incompetence any day of the week. After all, with Hoffa and the mob, the pension fund had the best record on loans in the country at the time! La Cosa Nostra is the way to go!!!

BTW - I'm still waiting for a Hoffa statue to be erected in Vegas!

Maybe Obama should try reading Hoffa's autobiography "Hoffa: The Real Story." He just may learn something about character.