Bren -

Who is Big Business in Wisconsin?

Do you think that the income of large Corporations should be more closely regulated and limited?

Do you know where most large Corporations generate their revenue from?

Should the compensation of Corporate executives be limited?

Thank you.

Tim, the recall effort is about Scott Walker following the ALEC/Koch agenda instead of representing the people of Wisconsin.

In the upcoming recall election you too will have to choose between your state and ALEC. I'll be voting for Wisconsin.

@Bren -

Your illogical and unsupported framing of the situation as being Koch/ALEC vs Wisconsin is the kind of vitriol that continues to divide our state. You do realize this, don't you? It's an ideological divide, but for some reason or another, your choose to make it a divide over the proverbial evil boogey-man.

One thing you don't hear is Walker bashing the public sector unions as being the left's boogey-men, do you? Instead, all I ever hear from Walker is let's work TOGETHER to move our state FORWARD!

There are those of us that are in fact Wisconsinites that approve of Walker's agenda, and if I'm not mistaken, we currently make up a majority of the state.

So, based on how you framed the question, will be satisfied with a Koch/ALEC agenda if that's what Wisconsin chooses to be?

Bren would prefer we were tools of politicians and bureaucrats instead of small business or those evil conglomerations of individuals called corporations. Sycophants of big government don't trust ordinary people to know what's best for them and they don't believe bureaucrats and politicians run on greed and power.

History is clear on the fact that free enterprise systems emancipated far more people from abject poverty, disease and ignorance than the socialistic alternatives and yet every day we are subjected to this sort of malicious slander insinuating the private sector is somehow more greedy and corrupt than the people at the public trough.

If you want to see the logical outcome of adopting the Center for American Progress/Soros big government liberal policies go to Detroit and then vote accordingly.

Do you dance-around often?

Avoiding the question is one way of doing it.

Inside, do you find the TRUTH a little discomforting?

What is the ALEC/Koch agenda?

What is "representing the people of Wiscosnin"

Mr. Hoffa, your disagreement with me doesn't make my position "illogical and unsupported." I don't assign attitudes to other people in a non-visual, non-verbal situation as it is counter-intuitive.

It would be difficult for an informed public to accept the ALEC agenda. I will hope that the good people of Wisconsin are reading their newspapers and realizing that this Governor is not a fiscal conservative, but a puppet following a multi-state agenda to roll back workers' rights and destabilize our economy for profit and the Democratic Party for power.
Locally, Walker's speechwriters and AFP have indeed changed the rhetoric to "Let's work together," but his pat out-of-state fundraising speech is still filled with "out-of-state union bosses," "unions" etc. He has no interest in "working together" unless we are all working together to roll back social and worker reforms back to the Industrial Revolution (i.e. ALEC).

You may indeed be mistaken that you are in the majority in this state. The growing concerns with the actual facts of the soil content in the area of the proposed mining project may well be turning more people against our R-ALEC governor.

Adam, all politicians in this country are influenced by special interests--the cost of elections ensures this and Citizens United exacerbates it. The situation is a bit more complex.

Concerning "big" government, these days I note that at least a faction of the Republican Party wants a government so big that it can peep into everyone's bedrooms. That's too weird and too big for me. I'm more for a government that provides services that would be too expensive for individual municipalities and/or states to provide, such as roads, Social Security, the best military in the world, and, if I may say so, eventually a cost-effective national healthcare system A NHS would take an enormous financial burden from small, mid-size and large companies and make American businesses more competitive in the international market. The role of government is also to regulate trade to maintain a level playing field and control egregious businesses practices.

What you call "malicious slander" I call documented evidence. The mortgage settlement is an excellent example of holding individuals/industries accountable for egregious/predatory business practices. There are many businesses that conduct themselves in a forthright manner and are very successful.

I subscribe to Open Society but am not sure how you are connecting George Soros to Detroit.

Tim Scott, you must be unfamiliar with my postings on this site. I will suggest that you do a search for "Bren" on this site and review my political postings to get a better understanding of where I'm coming from. You will also find supporting links.

As you are from Wisconsin and no doubt read the same business pages I do, a response to your first question is probably unnecessary. Regarding your question about regulating the income of large corporations, my greater concerns are with the methodology of income generation and any efforts to deregulate/imbalance the respective market(s) through undue political influence than with revenue sources and executive salaries. (But regarding salaries, I support compensating people for good work, which is why I also support paying fair wages to teachers and other public employees.)

Bren says: "I also support paying fair wages to teachers and other public employees"

I'm in absolute agreement, if only you would define FAIR for me.

I strongly suspect that what you find FAIR is NOT going to meet my definition of FAIR, which is why you continue to AVOID specifics.

We have seen, in the State of Wisconsin, "FAIR WAGES" become "DESTRUCTIVE WAGES" - but then, most Wisconsin union public employees love to practive "LOOT and SCOOT". They don't care one bit about the devastation they leave in a Community because once they get theirs, they're OUT OF HERE!

I have said it before, and I will say it again, you are disingenuous, at best.

@Bren -

You know how I feel about the whole Koch Bros / ALEC conspiracy theories. And yes, we already know that you consider them to be facts, and not conspiracy theories. But the bottom line is that the agenda you refer to is actually one of free market constitutional / libertarian governance, isn't it?

After all, if this all really about looting the collective good in the name of greed and profit, then who has specifically, individually, and solely benefited from such agenda thus far - other than the collective Wisconsin taxpayer that is?

The fact is that you can't name a single handout from the Walker administration that has solely benefited the Koch Bros or any other big wig billionaires can you? So, until you actually can, it's all supposition, conjecture, speculation, and inferences. You consider such to be reasonable, however, I'll continue to consider them to be "illogical and unsupported" until you have further proof of the 'hidden agenda' for us.

Bren, we all have to serve somebody; that's why 11 of the top 20 contributors to US political campaigns over the last 25 years are public and private unions. Don't make the mistake of believing politicians and bureaucrats are not motivated by greed and power.

I'm glad to hear you're willing to carve out a small exception for personal liberty when it comes to sexual peccadilloes in the bedroom, now if I could just convince you it is equally obscene to allow government in the boardroom, or your wallet, or in limiting what you can do with your personal property.

The mortgage settlement is an excellent example of politically motivated extortion. It is intended to compensate people who were foreclosed on by mortgage servicers who robo-signed paperwork—it has nothing to do with origination deception, fraudulent fees or whatever you appear to mean by "predatory business practices." The real culprits are the big hearted, big spending politicians who inflated the housing bubble by providing easy credit for borrowers with dollar signs in their eyes.

Big Business? What big business are left in the State of Wisconsin? The few that remain had to be bribed to stay. Finally there is a Governor that understands small businesses grow when they unleash the regulators. These same regulators bankrupted the State. 99% of State regulators couldn't run a business if their life depended on it. Hey, How many of you business owners would let Obama run your company if you decided to take a leave of absence?

Mr. Hoffa, you know I'm not one for "feelings." If David Koch says he is trying to help Scott Walker, it's documentation. Here's a link to an article that touches on that statement and also about a possible violation of campaign law: http://www.ashlandcurrent.com/article/12/02/24/state-headlines-wisconsin-public-radio-february-24. Here's a link (there were many but I chose one from DailyKos in your honour) to Scott Fitzgerald providing the motive for the multi-state union-busting agenda: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/09/954445/-Wisconsin-Republican:-attacks-on-unions-aim-to-defeat-Obama

You may continue to call them "conspiracy theories," but there's nothing "Area 51" about this--there's videodocumentation. Perhaps you don't wish to accept that this win-at-all-costs strategizing exists. I think a lot of folks are struggling with the turn the extremist faction of the GOP has taken.

If political gamesmanship is too abstract and you only look for financial renumeration, I "hear" unsubstantiated rumors of fat tax breaks (tracking). I am also watching the events of the Charter Street power plant develop, as a job posting on a private site for a "plant manager" for multiple state sites popped up last month. It's interesting because this position is typically called plant "superintendent" because of regulations and the job is advertised on the state website. However it's too early to tell what's going on, but something (among other things) to keep an eye on.

@JRH, everybody's singing this song to you :)

Frank Sinatra - I've Got You Under My Skin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yqGujr2-Jw&ob=av2e

Adam, I'm not disagreeing with you about political motivations and interests, but it is a complex issue.

The important thing to remember about government is the potential for politicization. Wrong-minded people can use the power of government to make it act in ways that are counter to the public good. It's interesting that your mind went right to "sexual peccadilloes" from my comment but wasn't my point. I was pointing out an inappropriate potential shift from a government that provides collective beneficial services to a theocracy, begging the usual question, which belief system becomes the state religion? You will not convince me that the taxpayer has no place at the table (at every level) when companies are using taxpayer provided services such as roads, canals, airports, etc. to conduct business. Violations put the public safety and investment at risk. Are you proposing anarchy?

The mortgage settlement is hopefully a first step in sorting out a debacle and bringing that industry to transparency.

@Bren -

You forget that companies are taxpayers too, and often times represent the largest tax revenue contributors to our governments, in addition to the charity that many of them voluntarily choose to engage in. But I suppose that's all done out of self-interest as opposed to helping out the collective good, right?

Or maybe, just maybe, corporate interests and the collective good actually line-up together more often than naught.

Nah, that can't be right - go on declaring the Koch Bros the boogey-men, as they most certainly have to be evil.

Mr. Hoffa, I'm currently researching a statement that "2/3 of all Wisconsin corporations do not pay taxes." I'll share my findings.

I get the sense that you are attempting to pigeonhole me as someone who is against capitalism and enterprise and if so, it will not be successful. As I have written before, there are many companies that play by the rules and are very successful. My issue is with corporatists who try to change the rules in their own favor, to the detriment of the public good.

once again bren you spout off about ALEC.......... do you even understand what it is? What is wrong with a group of people getting together and discussing what has worked and has not worked in the past........ Getting ideas on how to handle our current economic issues?

You seem to be very bias'd and not realize that dems also belong to ALEC..... and that the other dems have their own version of ALEC called NCSL which some Republicans also belong............

You really need to stop with the rhetoric and talking points.........

Look at it this way...... what happens at a teacher convention or a business seminar? Very similar....

They seem to want 'FAIR' wages but not pay THEIR 'FAIR' share of THEIR employee benefits...............

Cynthia, you have made comments such as these to me before and the answers have not changed. I believe I have a fair grasp on the ALEC agenda. What is wrong with a "group of people getting together and discussing what has worked and has not worked in the past........ Getting ideas on how to handle our current economic issues?" Absolutely nothing. Where I take issue is having a special interest task force write cookie-cutter legislation for Big Business-friendly items such as corporate welfare (tax cuts) and having their legislative members sign off and submit them virtually verbatim. (Except in the recent case of the Republican from Florida who forgot to take the word "ALEC" and its mission statement off her cookie cutter corporate tax cut bill before submitting it. Yikes.)

Facts have no bias, Cynthia and I have "told" you before that I am well aware that 7 Democrats are currently legislative members of ALEC. NCSL is a bipartisan organization, and I am not aware that their member resource tools include providing Big Business-friendly cookie cutter legislation.

"Look at it this way...... what happens at a teacher convention or a business seminar? Very similar...." I'm afraid I see no similarity between the ALEC and a business seminar. My professional organization does not write business rules.

And until we are notified by Patch that you have been appointed topic arbiter, you do not dictate what subjects or viewpoints are discussed in these boards.

So bren..... you will say ncls is bipartisan because some Republicans also belong to it...... but you don't admit that ALEC is bipartisian even when dems belong to it..... You don't understand that they do the same identical things.......... You can keep tying to think that you are not bias'd, but you are lying to yourself..........

bren have you ever felt strongly about an issue that you would do what you could to support and save it?

Hummm is it ALEC pushing regulations to cripple WI manufacturing? Or is it dems?

Cynthia, the term bi-partisan means two sides/parties. There are Democrats and Republican members in both organization. This information is presented on both websites. I'm not sure what admission you seek from me beyond what has been determined. There may indeed be some similar services provided by both organizations, but again, I have read or heard nothing that suggests that NCSL is a mirror organization to ALEC, especially as that would be redundant.

I interpret your suggestions that I am biased or lying to myself as projections which do not pertain to me.

Concerning feeling "strongly about an issue that you would do what you could to support and save it?" I have a strong conviction, based on extensive research, that Scott Walker's goals as Governor are inappropriately directed toward promoting the ALEC agenda and himself rather than representing his constituents; that those interests directly oppose the best interests of our state; and that he should be recalled.

Concerning your question about crippling Wisconsin manufacturing through regulation, please be more specific, otherwise I will respond by suggesting that regulations overall are put into place because of precedent and/or to create a level playing field for the industry; and to protect the public.

@Bren....I hope I am not inappropriately interrupting your dialogue with Cynthia, but I might be able to add some light to the difference between NCLS And ALEC. NCLS was founded it 1975 as a legislative service organization. They provided resources to all state legislators and their staff.

One of their functions is to represent states with the federal government. Major issues for them has been opposing the federal government on unfunded mandates.

When you are elected to a state legislature you are automatically a member, you don't have to join. Also, the presidency of NCLS switches every year between the Republicans and Democrats. It is truly bi-partisan.

They don't have associate memberships with business or do they draft model legislation.

I hope this clarifies the differences.

so bren....... what is the best interest of the State? That unions run the Government? That more money is spent then revenue? That WI does what IL did and raise taxes, run business's out of the State, cut medicare, lay off 1,000's, let dead people vote?

bren if you love IL policy so much what are you doing in WI? Do you not see the failure of what you want?

Tell me what was passed that is not in the best interest of WI citizens..............

@Cynthia...I question your assertion that unions control Wisconsin. I am assuming that you are referring to public employee unions. If that is the case, then you're going to have to produce the evidence that supports your claim. It appears that your assertion is an overstatement and is not supported by any facts. I still don't see how the discussion of unions is germane to the discussion of government involvement of regulations and regulation reform.

@Cynthia...Let's look at the differences between Illinois and Wisconsin.

1. Wisconsin has been fiscally responsible and has fully funded the ETF. Illinois has not and must depend on the general revenues each year to meet their obligations to retired employees.
2. Illinois has a long history of not paying its fiscal obligations.
3. In order to meet their shortfall they would have had to cut government spending by 26%. The raising of their taxes was only enough to cut the shortfall by 2/3 and the rest has to be done through spending cuts.
4. Wisconsin has closed its budget deficits and Illinois has not and there situation must be addressed each year with no easy fixes.
5. Illinois and California reflect a situation much like Greece. Over decades they have neither cut sufficiently nor increased revenues to cover their spending.
6. Wisconsin does not necessarily have the right economy to attract Corporations to our state. It is not just tax rates, etc. It is economic traditions and the supply and support structure. I don't hold Governor Walker responsible for not attracting more jobs at this time and the slow growth of the state's economy. Politicians can do very little to change the overall business climate. However, pinning all our hopes on making the state easier to do business in, reflects a misunderstanding of the issues.

Lyle, thank you for providing clarification of the two organizations, and also for your cogent analysis/comparison of the difference between Wisconsin and Illinois. It is very much appreciated!

Bren said "The important thing to remember about government is the potential for politicization."

Yes, I think that's a point we can all agree on. The founding fathers were so opposed to the concept of omnipotent government they listed a limited number of powers for Congress and said everything else belonged to the people or the states. It was the first time in history the power of government had been limited; the role of master and servant reversed (and you can see how long that lasted.)

Today we have so many "collective beneficial services" we literally have to ask the Supreme Court to decide if the commerce clause can be used to compel people to purchase health insurance from a government run exchange or a Catholic hospital compelled to provide abortion pills. Everything depends on who gets to define the public good. What's interesting is you don't consider homosexual sex and crucifixes in jars of urine "wrong-minded."

I think you may be mixing your metaphors there. Comrade Hero would apply to Communism. Sieg Heil would apply to National Socialism. Similiar ideologies, but not quite the same. They fought a bitter war in WWII. One was defeated, and the other collapsed. Neither exist anymore.

Here in Wisconsin we like to think of Governor Scott Walker as a Populist hero who is working hard to lower property taxes, rein in out of control government spending, and bring the wages and benefits paid to public employees to a level that is sustainable for the local people.

Now, you may be new to the area, and may be confusing the failed, destructive and counter productive policies of the Doyle Administration as those of the Walker Administration, but be assured, we are working as fast as possible to dismantle them. It will take years to repair the damage Jim Doyle did, but it is slowly coming along. You will be much happier in the future.

Tim, Fascism and what was called "Communism" in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics are indeed two sides of the same coin.

The problem with partisan universalisms is that they don't work when you are in a mixed room. Following the directives of your corporate sponsor does not fit the traditional role of a "populist hero." He may be a hero to the wealthy folks who benefit from the ALEC playlist, and to those who don't understand the impact of Walker's actions down the road, but there are plenty in Wisconsin (and on Patch) who do.

You have apparently forgotten the mess Doyle inherited from Thompson/McCallum. It might be a good idea to revisit those years for the purpose of context of realistically reviewing the Doyle administration.

We'll have to see how happy we are if Walker stays in office and the rest of his budget cuts take place in July, and also in the next few years.

I don't understand how someone can respect a Governor who wastes taxpayer money to gerrymander districts and then to pay for the resulting litigation, who makes the largest cut in state history to K-12 education, who makes other draconian cuts but still can't balance a budget, who raises taxes on poor people through cuts on Homestead and EIC, who adds corporate welfare to the budget then pays for it by wringing more concessions from public workers (who had furloughs under Doyle), etc., etc.

We need a Governor for Wisconsin, not ALEC.

Bren - Why does cutting the pay of a Teacher, or asking them contribute more to their health care and benefits affect the teaching effectiveness of a Teacher? Many in the private sector have already been through the same thing, often they are expected to do more, and they are still successful.

What's wrong with Wisconsins Teachers?

What should Teachers be paid - tell us - It should be Community specific - so let's pick something familiar to you.

BREN - Please list the following: (and be as specific as you want, i.e. you may want to break it down into grade, or class size, etc.)

Number of days that should be in a school year = ?

Number of Hours that should (roughly) comprise a school year = ?

Teacher Salary per school year in 2012 = ?

Amount for Pension = ?

Amount for Healthcare = ?

Amount for Sick Days = ?

Amount for Vacation = ?

Anything else you may want to add.

BREN - Don't you think a Community should KNOW what it's Teachers would want, prior to hiring them?

Tim Scott, I think you're moving off-topic here. Teachers did contribute to their healthcare and pensions via their compensation packages, same as we do in the private sector. MPS teachers told me they voted several years back to take less pay in favor of better insurance coverage, for example.

I'm not sure why you are asking all of those questions about school days, etc. Cuts to education often translate to loss of art, music, phy ed and after-school programs. Low-income children and families suffer the most from this because wealthier families can buy private lessons, club sports, etc. These are the experiences that widen achievement and cultural gaps (music instruction for example has been proven to raise IQ points in children).

Concerning your question about whether a community should know what its teachers want, public school education started here in 1836 while Wisconsin was still a territory. I would imagine this is enough time for communities to understand how to recruit and retain good teachers in their public school systems.
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wmh/archives/search.aspx?area=browse&volume=33&articleID=18432

I must also point out that "they say" is not typically considered a legitimate data source.

Executive Order 61 is a heaping helping of hyperbole. The biggest problem small family-owned businesses have is Big Business. When the mega-chains move in, family-owned businesses suffer. How about some regulations to control prices on products made by underpaid foreign workers that are purchased and imported in massive bulk by multinational corporations and sold at artificially low prices to dominate local markets? That might help the "mom and pop" stores. A lot.

@Randy1949 -

Here's a good example for you. When we wanted to place a new roadside sign up to promote the existence of our small family restaurant, it cost us over $8k in fees and expenses just to maneuver through all the bureaucratic red tape that was in our way to do something simple like this. And even then, it didn't get approved by the city until the third go-around. Why? Our proposal didn't change substantively. The make-up of the city council didn't change at all. So why did it take the third time to get approved?

Should it really be that difficult and costly to put up a roadside sign to attract patrons to one's service industry business? Sure, for the big boys, $8k is nothing, but for a small local outfit like ours, an $8k expense could mean the difference of turning a profit or eating loss for the next several months.

I believe that this is the kind of nonsense that Walker is looking to eliminate. I'm not talking about a free-for-all here, but rather a streamlining of the process and expenses involved that are directly imposed by the government. And what's so wrong with that?

@Bren -

Walker doesn't have any control over international trade relations - that would be your boy Obama, who you were just defending over on other boards, remember?

BREN says: "The biggest problem small family-owned businesses have is Big Business"

I thoroughly agree with you Bren, however you keep refusing to list the large Corporate Businesses that are driving small business out of business in Wisconsin.

Would you care to do so, so we may all be enlightened as to who these "Big Businesses" and "Corporate Giants" are - and what they are doing to drive out small business and throw privately employed middle class families and fixed income seniors out of their homes?

@JRH -- Wouldn't the size and placement of a roadside sign be more a matter of local zoning than state regulations? If , as you say below, Gov. Walker has no control over international trade relations, he has none over local zoning ordinances.

For the record, I agree with you about Plan Commissions and zoning boards. But those are pure frustration for everyone. I sat in as a witness on a few of those and saw them arguing over the style of outdoor lighting in a proposed condo development and the species of the foundation plantings. I saw a drainage ditch called a navigable waterway, which of course brought in the DNR.

@Randy1949 -

Many of the local rules and regulations are actually promulgated by state agencies and then adopted by the local boards / councils. From my reading of the transcript, it's those 'promulgations' that Walker is seeking to undo, as that's what he has control over. It would then be up to us to hold our local boards and councils accountable for adopting the better streamlined and more cost effective/efficient rules.

I hope to God he straightens out the DNR and the Commerce Department.

We live on a navigable waterway. There is a ditch a few hundred feet behind our property that gets water in it during storms. It drains into a pond and is considered a navigable waterway. I just can't picture any ships coming through here.

You do not want to deal with the EPA, DNR, Commerce Department or lawyers for the State, if you have any buried gas tanks on your property. Whether you were aware they were there or not they will come after you, put you through pure hell, and try to get all the money your or your heirs have. It doesn't matter if you are a commercial or private property owner.

Mr. Hoffa, Scott Walker claims he can create 250,000 new jobs too. Logically, he's going to have to clean up the worldwide recession in order to create an economic environment that will generate all those jobs for Wisconsin.

My point is that his ALEC policies are hampering small businesses, your signage issue being a prime example. As you wrote, $8,000 bucks is nothing to KFC (who doesn't treat chickens right, worldwide), but a serious expense to James R Hoffa's House of Prime.

Leveling the playing field is appropriate, but I don't see this as anything more than "save my job" rhetoric that will dissipate if he survives the recall.

@Bren -

You've already condemned the man based on very little fact, but rather speculation, conjecture, supposition, and inference. Is that really being fair in Bren's world? After all, based on how you hammer Walker, one has to wonder how and why you tolerated Doyle for 8 years without trying to recall him? All that backroom late night closed door dealing to award a crony contract to a Spanish conglomerate??? Did he not realize that we have train manufactures in this country??? Where were your outrage and conspiracy theories then?

How is billions of dollars of debt good for your grandchildren? Or tens of trillions on the federal level, courtesy of Mr. Obama and his fellow Democrats? Between local, state, and federal public debt, our grandchildren will each owe about $350k before they're even ever born if we continue to spend and accumulate debt at the current levels. How are you going to pay for all that Bren? Your bleeding heart altruism is writing checks that your savings account can't cash, isn't it?

And taxing the top 1% even at 100% doesn't even begin to make a hole in the budget deficits, let alone paying down the accumulated debt. Unless we impose some drastic changes in a relatively short period of time, our governments are going to end up just like the Wall Street house of cards when the housing bubble burst. Only who's going to be there to bail out our governments? J.P. Morgan did it a couple of times back in the early 1900's, but not even the current combined fortunes of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and the Koch Bros could even come close to doing so today.

I guess we sell out to China - but at what cost? The bottom line is that the game you want to play with our government is a losing proposition for us all.

In Nov of 2010, we as a state decided to give Walker a 4 year shot. If in those 4 years he proves to us that he really isn't a fiscal conservative, then we'll show him the door at the end of that term in 2014. But for some reason, that's unacceptable to you and your fellow recallers. I've got news for you and your friends - WE the Walker supporters are WISCONSIN too, and we're not just going to sit idly by while you and your side attempt to dictate and impose the collective will upon us any longer!

Put down the bongo drums and plastic horns and let's start getting realistic, shall we?

Mr. Hoffa, as I have stated to you before I rely on facts not feelings. I also believe in placing events in historical context. Deregulation and sidestepping led us right back down the road toward 1929.

But too many people don't do this. I have heard people actually blaming Pres. Obama for the deficit, blaming Gov. Doyle for his deficit, when we know they were gifts from the previous, respective administrations.

You often call for me and others to "get real," but you ignore or dismiss the evidence I provide. Do you consider that "getting real?"

I support recalling Scott Walker because a moral line was crossed when he embraced the ALEC agenda instead of looking out for our state's best interests. I didn't vote for him as I have stated before because I was familiar with some of his antics as County Executive and believed he was not qualified for the job of Governor. The involvement with ALEC and the Koch brothers was previously unknown to me. The vicious attack on public unions stroke a wrong chord because of its uncharacteristic level of organization and the simultaneous media blitz. "Americans for Prosperity" was the same group that bankrolled the Tea Party and my interest was piqued. It transpired that there was a lot more going on than a mediocre candidate getting into the Governor's office.

Gov. Dayton of Minnesota is standing up to ALEC. We need a governor who will do the same. http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/mn-governor-vetoes-alec-dictated-tort

Tim, in response to your question above, "Who is Big Business in Wisconsin," here is a list of Greater Milwaukee Forbes 500 and Forbes 1000 companies: http://www.metromilwaukee.org/work/index.html?a=showlist&sid=5

I'm not sure how to engage with you about Wisconsin companies going forward since you didn't know about the major entities. In response to your new question below, you are asking for specific lists about small businesses driven out by Big Wisconsin businesses. I will try to answer, appreciating that this issue is outside of your knowledge base. The corporate entities that I consider as being most deleterious to small businesses are not headquartered in this state (Walmart, etc.). I believe our state could take a more active role in regulating incursions into municipalities, as towns/villages often do not have the acumen resources to avoid being steamrolled by these mega-corporations. I hope this answers your questions.

@Bren -

Deregulation didn't 'cause' anything - it was merely a catalyst. Unbridled greed from all involved parties, from the 'poor' guy getting foreclosed on to the pension funds and municipal governments that invested in the CDOs, and the government bailouts of such activity are what 'caused' the rapid onset of current economic conditions in our country.

I would say that both Obama and Doyle inherited the accumulated debt of their predecessors, but they own their experienced respective deficits, as both knew about the debt walking into the jobs. In fact, I recall both promising to balance their budgets and actually start to pay down the principal on our respective debts - remember those promises? In fact, Doyle said that he could do it without raising taxes, right? Did any of those things actually happen though? In fact quite the opposite, their deficits were worse than when they started and our debts continue to grow, don’t' they? That is until Walker here in Wisconsin anyway.

How is the ALEC agenda necessarily immoral? That would seem a rather subjective argument as opposed to an objective 'factual' one, wouldn't you say?

I like facts too Bren, and the fact is that nothing I've argued here isn't supported by fact as well and you know it. That's why you can't come up with a single handout to the Kochs that is supported by independently verifiable fact. And yet, you continue to proliferate the 'boogey-man' 'hidden agenda' line of argument.

Well, we can split hairs and play word games all day about what caused the recession. If I am focusing on an aspect, you shift scope. Etc., etc.

Concerning campaign promises to damp down debt, candidates don't get the full picture until they take office. That's why it was ridiculous for Scott Walker to set metrics as he did. When Obama took office the economic freefall was gaining momentum. I support his decision to save jobs through bail-outs, just as GW Bush was starting to do albeit without metrics.

Scott Walker has also failed to balance the budget, in part because of his own administration's budgeting errors. How is ALEC immoral? I would say it is amoral, with an agenda based on manipulating the system to increase profits for its corporate membership. There's your real "hand out" to the Koch brothers. They are members and big donors to ALEC.

And once again I do not "proliferate the 'boogey-man' 'hidden agenda' line of argument." One can't reasonably call something that sits in the open "hidden."

@JRH, they are wind up toys. Wind them up, let them go, and listen to them pound their drums and whine whine whine.

I reiterate -- would someone please give me an example of the sort of regulation our Governor wants to lift off the backs of small businesses?

@Randy1949 -

I did that for you above.

Mr. Hoffa, you shouldn't keep accusing people who don't disagree with you of being "irrational" or "illogical" as it makes you appear defensive, as if frustrated by information that you do not fully understand. I'm fairly sure that's not the case.

I do think that Walker's free-spending benefactors will do whatever they can to keep him in office, David Koch said as much in a recent interview. If that includes paying lipservice to small businesses that are suffering in the recession, fine. Or the duplicative literacy initiative he rolled out a month or so ago. That was supposed to make people like me who care about the $1.6 billion cut from K-12 feel better. Unfortunately for that idea, many of us would have supported using services already in place and funding them instead.

At this point there is nothing this Governor can do or say that would convince me that he has any other concerns except saving his job and pretensions to the national stage and slavishly pandering to ALEC and the Koch brothers. Recall Scott Walker.

@mau -

Yes, Walker far eclipses the fiscally moderate Thompson. And while the Thompson years were good to us, a lot of it was built upon an ever increasing structural deficit. Walker's the first Governor we've had to actually tackle this issue head on and in a fiscally responsible and appropriate manner, as opposed to simply increasing taxes during a recession, as the Dems would have done while continuing with their out-of-control spending.

I think in Mr. Scott's definition a 'populist' is someone who's popular with the capitalists.

I own a successful small (75 employees) manufacturing company in Port Washington. We do not find it challenging AT ALL to follow Wisconsin's regulations. Which regulations are you struggling with? If it is environmental compliance, I highly recommend Alpha Terra Science to help you get back on track. Linda

Linda, thank you for presenting the facts about your successful small business.

What facts? At 75 employees just wait until Obama care takes effect then we'll talk.

Yup, she's over 40 employee's she will be singing a different tune..........

@ $$...Out of all the stuff you list...you never mention 'get rid of lobbying at all levels'...get rid of lobbying and the $ that can be gained (or lost) and you close the gaps within party line adgendas...follow the money on either side...find the corruption...
@ JRH...Winning the arguement single handedly agen I see...
@ AWD...Good one...Agreed

Yes Dave, read my post, my list is not complete. Hitting the delete button on lobbyists would be on the list as well.

Time for you to CELEBRATE then! Looks like Illinois is about to get a whole new crop of DEADBEATS, thanks to the compassion of Governor Pat Quinn (D), showing Governor Scott Walker how to remedy a State budget problem.

"SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (KFVS/AP) - Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn laid out a pretty grim budget Wednesday afternoon.

His plan includes closing 59 state facilities, from prisons to offices of the Department of Human Services.

"Today, our rendezvous with reality has arrived," said Gov. Quinn during his speech.

In his budget address Wednesday, Quinn said the need to lower state spending "gives us no choice."

Gov. Quinn talked a lot about restructuring the state's Medicaid program as well as strengthening the public pension systems."

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/16989115/quinn-to-propose-closing-prisons-in-grim-il-budget

Looks like the eternal compassion of Governor Quinn (D) centers on throwing union public employees under the wheels of the bus. You and your buddy there, AWD, can go to Illinois and provide some more of that compassionate assistance to these losers in lifes little lottery. I mean - where will they ever get a job that pays THAT much again? Their gravy train has ended - so the suicide rate should go up once again in Illinois.

Evil Incarnate Governor Scott Walker thinks "shared sacrifice" is the way to go, and wants to keep everyone employed, just at a reduced salary. Can you imagine the gall of that? It just SUCKS!

I am in. Think of how it will drive down demand for food, clothing, and other items. We will be able to live so inexpensively. We might end up putting some people out of work, but at 4 cents a round, we have a cheap fix!

Here is a little road trip for you two partners in crime, next stop, STOCKTON,CA. I hear it's warm and sunny there this time of year, plus lots of HOT BABES!

Going to be a WHOLE lot of public employees thrown under the wheels of the bus in Stockton. Perhaps you can dispense some of that mercy you're talking about.

"Stockton, California, may take the first steps toward becoming the most populous U.S. city to file for bankruptcy next week because of burdensome employee costs, excessive debt and bookkeeping errors that misrepresented accounts, city officials said today"

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/02/stockton-california-population-292000.html

"Somebody has to suffer and in this case the city manager has decided it should be the bondholders who suffer,"

Lookie there Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, the BONDHOLDERS are going to get SCREWED! TAKE THAT EVIL BONDHOLDERS! Make them pay!

It's great, because public employee pension plans are often heavily invested in Municipal Bonds! So you two can go- a -hunting RETIRED (and now BROKE) public employees.

Better stock up! I hear some of those public employees have HARD HEADS -

Well, Tim, I think it could be argued that the city didn't go broke because of public sector wages. You might be able to argue that if they didn't pay them at all they might have just made their budget work.

Here is some more liberal compassion - from the school teachers who are looting the town dry - and now must [prepare themselves for standing in the breadline!

"WOONSOCKET, R.I. -- The School Committee voted 3 to 2 Wednesday night to issue pink slips to all of the district's 600 teachers.

Frank Flynn, president of the R.I. Federation of Teachers, called the move "outrageous."

"This district is obliged to provide 6,000 with an education," he said. "This is an abuse of power and it shows gross ineptitude by the administration."

The two who voted against were Eleanor M. Nadeau and John Donlon Jr. Voting for were Chairwoman Anita A. McGuire-Forcier, Vimala D. Phongsavanh and Christopher Roberts.

The district is facing a $2.1-million deficit. State law sets March 1 as the deadline for districts to notifiy teachers who might be laid off."

http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2012/02/woonsocket-scho-2.html

That's Obama supporter and Independent Lincoln Chafee showing newbie, and naive, Governor Scott Walker how to deal with Public School Teachers.

Yeah, Tim, they are laying all the teachers off to hire them back at lower wages and to create a discontinuity in their employment, thereby effecting their benefits. I say its fair. All businesses should fire their workers at the end of the year and make all benefits contingent on working more than a year. Don't worry, you can have your job back after a day or so.

Uh, Tim, no one posting here (at least I would hope not) is serious about snuffing someone due to their socio-economic status. It is called sarcasm. Ease up bud.

@Tim Scott...AFSME stands for American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

Lyle - I know what you mean! Whoever would have thought that years ago, when the residents of a municipality banded together and pledged to pay a portion of the value of their property, every year, as a means to fund local government, that it would expand to the point where elected officials became unaccountable and would tax the residents out of their homes, seize them, throw the residents out, and then sell them at a fraction of their value to new residents.

What's worse is a group of citizens who were employed by the residents discovered that they could use their political power to elect people who would promise to abuse their power and tax even more people out of their homes.

How evil, sick and twisted can one group be to abuse the homes of others as their personal ATM. They don't even care about the families they throw out into the gutters.

When is enough, enough? Boarded up houses everywhere, businesses closed, people leaving, property worth nothing! What sort of a human being would inflict that pain and deprivation upon their neighbor? You'd think the City would collapse and have to declare bankruptcy. What then?

Lyle: I see the sm. bizz man having a seat at the table meaning he has a voice. It is about time Gvt. listen to them, and it doesn't mean the fox is guarding the henhouse. Doyle doubled fees for some of us small Biz guys, and the money was thrown down the toilet! I sent e mails begging the fee increase be used for education and consumer protection...It was just pissed away.
Most small operations are not going to push for their own agenda, but look out for everyone affected- including the consumer.

Private business/property before government. We have fought for it in the past and are willing to fight for it once again. End the progressive socialist movement.

Steve - you are exactly correct. Restoring, and respecting private property rights is number ONE if Wisconsin is to be saved! It is time to END property tax, and return allodial title to homeowners. Let the schools and public employees be funded with consumption and VAT taxes ONLY.

Why the public employees want to continue throwing families and seniors out of their homes, to satisfy their sense of entitlement and avarice, is beyond me.

"A government union turns the public servant into the public's master. It is a means of using the government's own spending to organize control of that government. And that is exactly what's happened. The government, unlike private companies, isn't limited by normal economics because the government controls the monopoly on force and has the power to levy taxes.

Organizing unions made up of state employees completely eliminated the ability of market forces to temper their power. After all, taxes aren't subject to the demands of consumers. Following Kennedy's executive order, membership in public employee unions – The American Federal of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), and the Teachers' National Education Association (NEA) – boomed. So did their contributions to liberal, Democratic politicians."

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pub/reports/201112PSI_issue.html

Lyle, this is getting to be a familiar refrain; government interference in the market causes a distortion but when the artificial boom turns to bust the market economy is blamed to justify more government intervention and control creating new distortions.

In the case of the housing bubble the intervention was low interest rates and the elimination of risk to lenders for loose credit guidelines by government agencies Freddie & Fannie. This had the effect of putting people in more house than they could afford and inflating values for everyone, perfectly illustrating how government subsidies actually make things more expensive (see also: student loans, grants and tuition increases in higher education.)

@Craig....Your illustration of the small business not being represented is not entirely accurate. During my many decades in business, half as a small business entrepreneur, I was always able to find a way to secure representation through trade and professional associations. They provided a way for me to find a voice with government and our big corporation foes. These entities provide lobbying services, healthcare insurance, etc. They represent the true counterpoint to unions and the influence of large corporations. I could be as active as I wanted and did sit on many boards for such organizations. I find it quite ironic that the entrepreneurs posting on the various Patch threads, seem to either not discovered this very effective tool or have chosen not to participate. As an example, just look at the Tavern League of Wisconsin. It is comprised of all independent businesses and has a very effective voice in State politics.

The very idea that small businesses have been under represented is to some extent resting at their own feet. Therefore, I see this as more of a feel good political move by the governor and not really anything of true substance. Big money from the big businesses still dominate the process. Until small businesses form specific and effective trade representation groups, they will continue to feel underrepresented in the political process.

Lyle: I would rather see a set of different individuals at that table over organizations. Take the money out of the equation, rely on the experience of people who have built a small business. Take their advice and concerns as to what may be hampering others from starting a small business....
Hands on is always the best way to go when looking for input. (IMO)

@Craig...In an ideal world, I agree that we should trust those who have walked the walk. My problem is, how do you determine what is a small business. There are businesses that are sole proprietorships that are anything except a small business. Do we define a small business as one that only has a certain number of employees?

Money buys access and influence and it's irrespective of political party. I would agree that a general panel including non-partisans would be preferable. in honesty, my biggest battles were with big business and not government. The shaping and drafting legislation and subsequent regulations has always drawn the highest attention from big businesses. It is the small business that usually suffers the consequences. Much of the onerous regulations that drive small busy crazy was designed to regulate the big business, who have the resources to deal with the regulation. An example; think about bringing suit against a large corporations. They can bankrupt the plaintiff just by dragging the suit out and the ability to afford a top legal team that can obstruct the process.

@Tim Scott...I think you're letting your passions over rule facts. The entities you list are not corporations. I won't argue the point that they are, in fact, large employers. However, Racine County and Kennosha County have been devastated over the last two decades with loss of manufacturing jobs. Prior to GM shutting down in Janesville, the county with the highest unemployment was Racine. I don't see how business conditions, which caused so many plant closings, can hold the public agencies responsible. You also have elected officials to represent your interests that control and regulate the public services. It may be that if you are so dissatisfied that it is that the elected representatives didn't represent you as well as you wished.

Services cost money, whether publicly or privately financed, and we will pay for them out of one pocket or another. For example, my children are grown and all were educated through the public schools. Now if I were to follow your logic; if I wanted them to get an education, then I would have to pull the money out of my "private pocket" to pay for it, which is much more expensive than what I paid in taxes. Also, since I no longer need the services of the public schools, I shouldn't have to further contribute from my "public pocket". However, I continue to pay because I received and benefited from the service. I think your libertarian ideology is getting in the way of a broader understanding.

LYLE - It's your job to talk all day long and convince others to pay you lots of money for doing nothing and not being productive. So far, Lyle, you have been VERY successful. I understand that you like the life of luxury - being able to manipulate, lie and cheat with your mouth has been VERY lucrative for you.

You're NOT fooling me. I can only take so much of you, then you get old, boring and irritating - so you an I will spar from time to time - AS I HAVE TIME - becacuse it can be interesting - but all in all it's just mental masturbation.

You've done very well with your mouth and have built a fortune on nothing.

Congragulations.

@Tim Scott -- I'm curious how you know so much about Lyle and his current profession.

As for looting and scooting, the worst bullies seem to be the large corporations who negotiate favorable tax deals with government, pushing the burden onto the private property taxpayer.

@Lyle -

According to state statute, all of the entities listed by Tim Scott are defined as being "municipal corporations."

"Randy - "As for looting and scooting, the worst bullies seem to be the large corporations who negotiate favorable tax deals with government, pushing the burden onto the private property taxpayer."

I just listed them. They are all government Corporations. Lyle says they are not- he is WRONG. How can one argue with a liar? Tell me.

SO - once again:

A government union turns the public servant into the public's master. It is a means of using the government's own spending to organize control of that government. And that is exactly what's happened. The government, unlike private companies, isn't limited by normal economics because the government controls the monopoly on force and has the power to levy taxes.

Organizing unions made up of state employees completely eliminated the ability of market forces to temper their power. After all, taxes aren't subject to the demands of consumers. Following Kennedy's executive order, membership in public employee unions – The American Federal of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), and the Teachers' National Education Association (NEA) – boomed. So did their contributions to liberal, Democratic politicians."

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pub/reports/201112PSI_issue.html

@JRH...Thanks for pointing out my error concerning the structural status of the organizations listed by Tim Scott. Quite honestly I had completely forgotten about municipal corporations. Tim Scott, I apologize for my error. However, it doesn't change the accuracy of my basic premises and conclusions.

Tim, you were asking for information on large Wisconsin companies, state and municipal agencies are a differing category.

And thank you for the rhyming talking point, "Loot and Scoot." I like this one because it equates earning a wage with a crime, and because it suggests that a public employee may not choose where she/he may retire.

lyle the question would be ..... "Why are you against a Governor trying to revive manufacturing in WI?" He has done the best job so far then any Governor to bring manufacturing back to life in WI.

@James -

What is your source for this "$2.3 billion in tax breaks for their Georgia Pacific plant near Green Bay?" You do realize that in order to generate a state corporate tax burden of $2.3B, that one GP plant would have to experience yearly revenues of somewhere around $90B and a yearly profit of around $30B, which would effectively make it the most profitable single manufacturing plant in the entire world by a wide margin.

Please, stop talking out of your @ss!

James, I had also heard that GP has received massive tax breaks but their reputation for financial secrecy is well deserved. Can you tell me where you heard this information? I'd appreciate it!!! Thanks!

Have you ever looked at doyle's 'giveaways'?

Thursty, I'd also like to save the nattering nabobs of Recall some time so they don't have to keep regurgitating the same tedious facsimiles:

http://www.wisdems.org/RecallHQ/WalkerFailures

@Ron Abalone -- There are indeed two sides to any story. I can see how such subtle details as height, brightness, color, size, and general appearance of a sign could affect neighbors adversely, and once it's up, it's that much more difficult to modify it if someone objects to that flashing pink flamingo next to their quaint country antique shop.

That said, having been through a similar zoning process myself, I think the planning commissions sometimes do it just to show you who's boss.

Our business is actually in a strip mall that has a pre-existing multi-panel road-side pylon that other businesses in the mall have their signs on. We simply wanted to add our sign in one of the empty panels. The city had changed the height restrictions on signs, significantly reducing them. The pylon sign did not meet the new code, and was therefor grandfathered in based on pre-existence and compliance with the old code. Because the code changed, the city said that we couldn't add our sign to one of the empty panels because the new code restrictions forbid any changes being made to the grandfathered-in pylon sign unless the entire pylon was rebuilt to meet the new code requirements. So, we applied for a variance and were twice denied. Then, we filed a lawsuit against the city. Finally, the city attorney agreed to settle the case and instructed the board to grant the variance at the third meeting it was proposed at.

Again, all we did was fill a vacant panel on the pre-existing grandfathered-in multi-panel pylon sign with a sign for our restaurant.

Why did something that simple require multiple application filings with the city, each time with a fee, the involvement of attorneys, and the filing of a lawsuit in order to accomplish?

Does that make any sense what-so-ever? I guess the city would've preferred the multi-panel sign to retain vacancies until the mall decided to rebuild the sign, probably 20 years in the future? What social good would that have accomplished?

@JRH --File that one under the heading, "The Law is a @ss".

@Hoffa - Thanks for a more thorough explanation of your strip mall business/signage problem as an example of government obstruction of business. I agree that it was best that the variance was granted to you from the standpoint of sheer waste of physical property and dollars to tear down and build a lower sign pylon. What reason was given for the new restriction on the height of signage? Was it a safety or aesthetic concern, or just arbitrary, which I highly doubt? Did your family, assuming they were tenants, and not owners of the strip mall, pursue the problem with the strip mall owner? If the owner promised you a panel on the sign pylon, he should have footed the variance costs or built a new sign pylon within the new code.Signage assurances/limitations for a tenant should be spelled out caerefully in a lease arrangement. Apparently, there was no such agreement or you would have sued the owner, or filed a claim if he was bankrupt? Also, an argumentative attitude and lack of compromise from the start can create resistance in anyone, including planning commissionsl.

@Thurston Howell III -

Again, how does any of that prove that Walker is a Koch/ALEC puppet? I don't recall him signing any pledges to the Koch Bros/ALEC, do you?

However, I do seem to recall something about a pledge that his top Democratic rival signed with public sector union leadership - did you hear about that one?

So far, I like and support most of what Walker has done, and my last name isn't Koch and I'm not a member of ALEC - I'm just a citizen of the great state of Wisconsin, like yourself. So, if the Koch's and ALEC happen to side with my ideological views, the more power to 'em!

And quite frankly, I don't have a problem with that. If large organizations or wealthy billionaires want to give money to support a candidate because they agree with the candidate on the issues and in the candidate's ideological platform, there's no problem, is there? It's only when those entities/people try to change the candidate or purchase influence via the lure of their money that a problem actually arises, correct?

The fact is, you can't name a single thing that Walker has done that solely benefited the Koch Bros, can you? However, Falk signed a pledge, that if carried out, stands to solely benefit the public sector unions and their membership.

So, let's be honest here - who's the real puppet with concrete proof positive facts, as opposed to mere speculation, conjecture, supposition, and inference?

Mr. Hoffa, I believe you posted a very similar post to me earlier and I responded.

@Thurston -

Thanks for the support - it's appreciated!

I continue to disagree with you about 'the Walker agenda,' but appreciate your support on this most common-sensible matter.

Hope your day is grand as well!

Yes projections do show a small deficit for 2013 (PROJECTION).....(Now what if all the money was not wasted on recalls, recounts, unscheduled elections, and court fees.... add that up) but it's no where near 3.6 Billion from doyle, which BTW at first was projected to be 6.6 Billion....... Even when doyle announced and talked about that HUGE deficit sure don't remember your panty's in a wad............

@Tim Scott -

Lighten up on the insults, buddy!

Lyle has earned the respect of the Patch community and my personal friendship. He's not ignorant, nor is he a fool. While he may be left of center, that doesn't make any less worthy than you or anyone else.

If you feel that he is lying, making stuff up, or deflecting on issues, then call him out on it and/or challenge his suppositions, but don't just throw around insults - it's not very kosher and highly indicative of a low intellect.

Do us all a favor here and please adjust your attitude a little.

Because you are letting public unions rule WI Government..................

Monday Morning QB,
I believe my style has served me quite effectively, Thank You! As you say, the voter is susceptible to the weakest of arguments, as lot as he's foolish enough to believe it's true. Case in point... The Governor Walker " It's Working Campaign". It's got a good beat, easy to dance to, and repeated ad nauseum by the weak minded who cannot think for themselves. Lies can sell, and Lies repeated more often sell more effectively.... just sayin' .

@Monday Morning QB,
"I am not directing my thoughts particularly at you,..." Then maybe it'd be a good idea to omit the "Thurston-" At the beginning of your posts?

Tim his wife is a union stooge for the union goon social workers, that could splain a lot.

I'm a conservative, but you need to lighten up on Lyle.
While he may not agree with you, he doesn't attack people and therefore is undeserving of such attacks.
I have disagreed with him on many topics, but he has NEVER been a liar.
Regarding CCAP....you never contested a bill?

Craig - That's putting it nicely, to say the least. I would characterize what I see as "troubling" - and yes, he lies, it is the trademark of the left, which is why you can neither win or establish fact with the left. It answers a lot for me about what he says and does.

AlfredKeel - Yes, you are right. I note State employment in liberal organizations. Now I know. Lyle was to protect his parasitical existence and believes all should pay for him. I am right - his record confirms it. He is also subject to "stretching the truth" as far as necessary to achieve his goals. It should be explained for all to see. I think he is paid to be here - and I think he is left-wing propoganda who will attempt to discredit any truth that doesn't fit his agenda. He is a danger to Democracy. He has been outed - take not all who read these words.

@Tim Scott...What you see is what you get. I have nothing to hide and what purpose would there be to misrepresent myself. As I responded before, my last business venture ended less than satisfactorily, leaving me holding the bag, including a huge tax bill. Beyond that I will not make further comment because of the legal implications and the suit I have brought against other parties.

I am paid by no one for my writing, Patch or otherwise. I served in the U.S. Navy from 1965 to 1974, four and half years in VP-26, accumulating over 1800 flight hours.

I don't know who owns Patch other than, I think, it is a subsidiary of Huffington Post. If you don't believe me contact Marty Markham who is the Regional Editor or your local editor and they will confirm that I am not part of their organization.

I have taken up writing as an avocation and I have always been involved in social issues, both by formal education and interests. Since my full retirement I have been able to concentrate on my passions. As far as an agenda is concerned, there is none other than to confront, what I consider to be obvious misinformation, provide a alternative view. I have made no secret that I am a democratic socialist and I oppose unregulated capitalism as well as social injustice.

@AlfredKell...My spouse, who works for the state is a very non-political person. She still is a member of her local, but she is not a "union goon". It is fine to attack me and my credibility, but I would hope that you would stop your negative characterizations of her,. of which she is undeserving. She performs a service that most would not want to do investigating incidences of child abuse and neglect. She and her colleagues are the unsung heroes for what they do.

Overall it's clear Lyle truly believes the positions he takes here on this forum. His only behavior I've objected to in the past was devaluing others opinions based on his perception of their education level. But this is a very common behavior on the far left; they believe they are superior intellectually and thus can enforce their rules of behavior on you. But otherwise I respect Lyle's opinion, albeit do not agree with his opinions on most occasions.

If you really want to go after someone on the left go after Keith S. He's probably out busy scheming up a new plan to fleece the taxpayers on another bookstore or buggy whip or typewriter factory. Now that's progressive!

You have no chance of changing anyone's mind on a forum like Patch. You are p*ssing into the wind. Each side is entrenched in their view and won't be swayed to change. Further, using your real name on this forum wins you a major Darwin award. Employers are scanning the internet every time they make a hire, going over Facebook and other postings. Postings here won't help your cause in acquiring that next job. The beauty of the internet is anonymity when needed and it's needed here. I really wish Lyle, Keith, Bob and others would stop using their real names. There's a whole lot of downside for using your real name and zero upside.

I think she is a paid shill for left-wing Socialist organizations. Who is paying for Patch. I like Patch, and think Heather does a great job reporting - but I see problems here with some posters - and yes - I got emotional - but I KNEW something was wrong. My research is confirming it.

Bren and Lyle are most likely paid propoganda from the far Socialist Left. They are here to deceive, lie, and obfuscate. Know it and undertand their posts in that light. That's why it's like banging your head against the wall.

Brian, I'm sorry that you feel the need to accuse me of being illogical because you disagree with my views. Concerning small business, I believe history reveals that the "mom and pop" business concept has been around for several thousand years. The origins of the Big Business/multinational corporations could well include the East India Company; however this has not previously been a topic of research.

As I have stated before, I believe that Citizens United exacerbated the issue of the influence of special interests in government politics. I do not believe that this view is in opposition to your own, and find your perception that disagreement with your personal views is "illogical."

I do not know if the Koch brothers are actually being "demonized by their success." Certainly there has been discord within the Koch family pertaining to finances, although I understand that some measure of détente has been reached after years of litigation. I believe that people, including Occupiers and recall supporters (including myself) who research Koch Industries do indeed find and "get" that this is a large multistate corporation with numerous employees.

I do not believe that progressive policies are to blame for "destroying the global economy," or accept the statement that it has actually been destroyed.

Tim, if you are referring to me in your first paragraph your categorization is incorrect. Speaking only for myself (although I would stake my life that your categorization of Lyle is also incorrect), I have made no secret of my support for the recall of Scott Walker, and the research findings that inform that viewpoint.

Excuse me, but what is this?

@Tim - You seem to have accidentally hit the send button while you were working on the conservative manifesto for corporate world dominaton. Now that we have it, we will use it to work with our multitude of "corporations from the left" you mention in a later post, if we can find any. You are a master of oxymorons, did you ever work in a corporation at an executive level? You better have your Republican pants on there to be successful. .

LOL! Oh confused one, you are being funded by billion dollar Corporations from the left - as I suspected!

Stop hating! Open your eyes to the truth!